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It has been shown to be just placebo. It works as well if you put the needles in the "wrong" places and even if you don't use needles. Complete bullcrap.

The whole idea of a placebo is that it ends up making you feel better. So, if someone feels better after taking a sugar pill or having acupuncture or drinking Emergen-C, who cares? Feeling better for any reason is good! The placebo affect is certainly better than nothing. And we have plenty of research to back up the mind-body connection showing that perceived improvement is a catalyst for actual, measurable medical improvement. So, if someone gets the placebo affect from something--wonderful!

Of course placebos don't work for horses. But I'm not certain I want to write off acupuncture completely as nothing but a placebo. I've never had it done on myself. But many years ago it got a horse who'd had severe anhidrosis to start sweating again. He'd had the condition since I knew him at age 5, and at 12 after 3 acupuncture sessions he started and continued to sweat normally. I can't explain why this happened, but it's made it hard for me to count it out entirely.

Tsavo wrote:https://www.businessinsider.com/aacupuncture-is-useless-steven-novella-2016-5?utm_content=buffer8ea43&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-bi

It has been shown to be just placebo. It works as well if you put the needles in the "wrong" places and even if you don't use needles. Complete bullcrap.

It seems to work quite well for those who have what are likely psychosomatic issues. Only trouble is, patients tend to throw everything at the problem all at the same time so have no idea which one(s) might have helped, or if the problem went away on its own.

But, if any of it makes them feel better then they worked, but just maybe not the way they think they did.

If toothpicks have the same placebo content then acupuncture does not work as advertised. Nobody is claiming the placebo effect isn't real. Acupuncturists claim it is real and not placebo. They are wrong.

In re horses, there is the caregiver placebo effect that even vets succumb to. That means most owners are sitting ducks.

Tsavo wrote:In re horses, there is the caregiver placebo effect that even vets succumb to. That means most owners are sitting ducks.

I don't believe it helps horses with whatever issues it was done to help. However, I believe without a doubt that it does 'something' when those needles are in. If you've seen enough horses getting it done (and I have) you can see the way the horse responds and they are clearly showing relaxation and pleasure. Not my imagination.

Tsavo wrote:If toothpicks have the same placebo content then acupuncture does not work as advertised. Nobody is claiming the placebo effect isn't real. Acupuncturists claim it is real and not placebo. They are wrong.

True, but patients don't care how acupuncturists market it as long as they feel like treatments make them feel better. I think many patients are aware that it may be all in their heads, but they don't care about that either, as long as they think it's going to, or has the potential to help them.

I won't even pretend to understand the mindset that keeps patients going in for accupuncture and other such "alternative" treatments, but then I've never been in the kind of pain they describe. I can understand how being sick/in pain could drive one to try treatments that they know probably aren't working, though.

I feel like what alternative practitioners are selling is hope/attention/validation, or whatever the patient seems to need from them.

musical comedy wrote:

Tsavo wrote:In re horses, there is the caregiver placebo effect that even vets succumb to. That means most owners are sitting ducks.

I don't believe it helps horses with whatever issues it was done to help. However, I believe without a doubt that it does 'something' when those needles are in. If you've seen enough horses getting it done (and I have) you can see the way the horse responds and they are clearly showing relaxation and pleasure. Not my imagination.

I agree.

I have experienced positive benefits in both dogs and horses. I also had a career ending injury that without acupuncture, I probably would have had to retire. Fortunately that was not the case. Call it placebo effect or whatever but I will continue to recommend it.

If I was in a barn with someone who wanted to experiment I'd schedule the app'ts for their horse, they could schedule for mine, and then we could evaluate our own horses without knowing when, or even if they were receiving treatments--although I expect the research has already been done.

musical comedy wrote:

Tsavo wrote:In re horses, there is the caregiver placebo effect that even vets succumb to. That means most owners are sitting ducks.

I don't believe it helps horses with whatever issues it was done to help. However, I believe without a doubt that it does 'something' when those needles are in. If you've seen enough horses getting it done (and I have) you can see the way the horse responds and they are clearly showing relaxation and pleasure. Not my imagination.

Yes but what is the evidence that relaxation and pleasure for a little while are curative for muscle-skeletal pathology which is the reason acupuncture is done as far as I know?

We are up to thousands of studies now and there is no evidence other than placebo.

Do horses exhibit the placebo effect? I would not expect this to be the case.

calvin wrote:Do horses exhibit the placebo effect? I would not expect this to be the case.

No but their caregivers do including vets.

Google "caregiver placebo effect"

I have had wonderful experience with acupuncture for both myself and my cat. My painful lupus symptoms went away for several days after each session. If you don't like acupuncture no one is forcing you to use it. I don't understand the driving need for some people to foist their opinion on others. I don't come on here and declare that all people that think acupuncture doesn't work are wrong.

I think this behavior shows a narrowness of mind. There, I said it.

Well, I understand what you are saying, but...

Several years ago I was in a car accident and ended up with some really quite severe pain in my shoulder through neck region. That big muscle was apparently so spasmed and knotted that no amount of physical therapy, massage, drugs, electrical stimulation, you name it, could break through and get that muscle to let go and I was miserable and looked like a one-sided vulture.

I was pretty darned skeptical about the proposition of acupuncture, but I'd reached the "I'll try anything" point. So off I trotted to see this guy who stuck needles in my neck and shoulder, left me alone for ten minutes, came back and twiddled them, then left me alone for another ten minutes. The snapping and popping as that muscle let go was quite a thing to experience. There was immediate relief and I went home and slept for 18 hours straight.

Do I believe it's going to cure cancer? No, of course not. But, like ex-vet, for some things my personal experience is that it can help. We've just not found out why yet.

On the other hand, there is a large body of scientific literature concluding that acupuncture may have beneficial effects on pain relief. I haven't looked into the contradictory conclusions, but I would caution that the issue is not as simple as these statements make it appear.

Reviewed here: https://nccih.nih.gov/health/acupunctur ... ction#hed1

I find it somewhat foolish to use western biomedical assessments to evaluate a non-western non-biomedical practice such as Traditional Chinese Medicine. Of course TCM makes no medical sense! It makes sense in TCM.

Fun personal experience: I tried acupuncture when I was in serious dire straits from an unmanaged disease. My body was so inflamed at the time that I was willing to accept any relief from treatment--even for a day. However, when the experienced practitioner placed the needles, they would only stay put for a few seconds before flying out of my body. He was unphased and said he had seen that in some more dire cases. I did get some temporary relief from that treatment. Later, I tried another practitioner. Again, after needles were placed, they flew out of my body. This time, the younger practitioner was pretty freaked out! And I didn't get much relief. Maybe I should have used toothpicks instead!

I have used acupuncture on my horses and dogs for years now. It does work and anhydrosis is one of the very dangerous issues it does well with. I had a boarder horse with cushings that did not sweat to speak of in the summer. I also had to clip him usually 4 times a year. He was on prascend when it came out and on pergolide before prascend. He quit sweating, I tried beer of all types, supplements and even drugs (ventipullem). He was so bad I was hosing him during the day several times a day even while in the barn under a fan. My holistic vet treated him a couple of times the following year and he never had an issue again of not sweating. Absolutely no caregiver placebo affect. While I still had to clip him in following seasons, never again did he not sweat to the point of having to hose him or even give him any supplements. Anhydrosis can be deadly here in the humid south, I was lucky to not have any more trouble with him after that one horrible year where it was a constant vigil to keep him cooled off.

Fatcat I agree with you.

Tsavo I do not understand why you care if others feel different about alternative treatments than you do. Quit preaching, it is our money to spend.

I am single-handedly trying to counter DeVos's campaign against science.

No but their caregivers do including vets.

YES IT DOES. I'm 55 years old and I've been practicing for 30 years. While evidenced-based medicine has been a 'thing' for the past 15 years, I've used it for my entire career; however, I don't just use published research. One of my valued learning over my years has been how to evaluate research and statistics used in such research. I also do not wear blinders. I do not insist that others accept my conclusions. I do inform and share as much knowledge as I can to arrive at an appropriate decision for each INDIVIDUAL case. End of story and imo nothing else needs to be said or critiqued.

I had a horse bolt with me and the ensuing melee tore my rotator cuff. I did the typical nsaid/PT route with little improvement.
A husband and wife team of doctors happened to board at my barn. The wife is a DO, the husband is a NMD. They swore up and down for months that the acupuncture would help me and I poo-pooed them. After all, I am science girl. What the hell would what we laughingly referred to as voodoo solve?

After about 9 months of treatment, I relented. They brought their little kit to the barn and sat me down in the aisle. I got needles from the back of my ears, all the way down my arm and finally between my fingers. I sat there for about ten minutes until suddenly my arm felt like it was
plunged into a bucket of hot water. It was very warm and the sensation lasted for about ten minutes. The doctors told me
that they typically do 4 treatments initially, so they told me to rest the next day, then they would repeat the treatment three more times.
The next day, my shoulder hurt like hell. Super painful. The following day, they repeated the needling and I again got
the experience of my arm being in hot water. This time it was a little less painful the next day.

I got treated two more times over the next four days and have not had to take nsaids or get other treatment since. I don't know why it worked, but it did. I was not taking any other meds and had no other treatments.

We also treated a horse with anhydrosis with acupuncture. It did not completely cure him as he had quite a severe case
but it did help immensely.

Tsavo wrote:I am single-handedly trying to counter DeVos's campaign against science.

You aren't the only scientist or otherwise well-educated person on this board.

I am having arm trouble - see my post in the fitness area - my naturopath wanted to do acupuncture, but my neck was so tight, she couldn't get the needles in or they wouldn't stay in, so she did more of an acupressure, with just her hands and fingers. It was unbelievably painful... but this morning, I was able to start typing at my desktop without the pins and needles feeling flaring up in my hand.

Like someone said above, if people want to spend the money, let them.

This thread reminds me of an interesting article about a philosopher who had a great influence on my education in social sciences, Bruno Latour: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/maga ... ience.html

It's a fun read for those who are interested in both reality and putting how/what we know in science into context.

StraightForward wrote:

Tsavo wrote:I am single-handedly trying to counter DeVos's campaign against science.

You aren't the only scientist or otherwise well-educated person on this board.

I never said nor implied I was. But what are the others doing to counter the war against science?

Working everyday to inform elected officials of scientific results and opportunities for future investigation

Look, Science is simply a theory that has not yet been proven wrong. it relies on measurable repeated tests to either conform or repudiate the theory. any real study of science begins with the history of how a theory has come into being. For example to ignore bioscience for a moment, and consider the atom. the greeks proposed that there might be atoms, but it was ignored for a few hundred years until John Dalton revisited the idea in the early 1800. the world was advanced enough that he did not get killed for the idea, ( joke) but he thought atoms were a solid sphere, so for about a hundred years, the atom was accepted by science as being a solid sphere. So then along came this scientist and thought, hey perhaps the atom has components, and he descibed it as a plum pudding, ie a sphere dotted with other stuff. ( positive and negative stuff). then within about twenty years, there were four major changes, one was a oscillating model, one was a planetary model and then along came Schrodinger, with his quantum model, and nothing has changed in another hundred years, but all you need to know about Schrodinger is that his theories make a cat both alive and dead, so i have a feeling suddenly there will be another flurry of "scientific proof" addressing the structure of an atom again.

My point is that I have a scientific degree, and I appreciate scientific theory, but it is not perfect, and nor is it complete. I am , like Tsavo, a bit of a skeptic when it comes to holistic practitioners, but i do not seem to have the zealous fanaticism that denies the fact that science still has a lot to discover, and that some things do actually work that do not yet have the benefit of scientific proof

How is acupuncture a war against science? It is called alternative or complementary medicine. Even mainstream medicine is embracing acupuncture.

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam

Was just talking with my mainstream vet who happens to be a surgeon, former farrier and interned at Rood and Riddle. He is my go to mainstream vet and I love him. He was the one I took Joplin to for her lameness. He was just telling me about a lameness he was called out for. Horse would not take the right lead, he looked and looked and could not find anything. So he had my holistic vet out, we both know her and he recommends her to his equine clients that are in need. He was there when she came out to work on the horse, she found a rib out (yes it is a real thing, I have had one out a few times IT HURTS!) adjusted him and now no issues with the right lead. He is a believer now, was actually kind of flabbergasted that she found it so easily and fixed it so quickly. He was an admitted skeptic.

I was a skeptic, but 3 specialists all directed me to acupuncture to treat the headaches, knotted muscles, and numbness in my left shoulder/arm/hand caused by two slipped disks and a separated shoulder. So, I tried acupuncture. It relieved the knots, pain, numbness, and stopped the tension headaches. I was able to sleep and use my shoulder again.

I go back for more acupuncture about once a year when I screw up and do something that causes the shoulder to become inflamed again.

Tsavo wrote:

StraightForward wrote:

Tsavo wrote:I am single-handedly trying to counter DeVos's campaign against science.

You aren't the only scientist or otherwise well-educated person on this board.

I never said nor implied I was. But what are the others doing to counter the war against science?

I'm an ecologist working to improve science-based natural resource management. I have an MS and work with plenty of PhD'd researchers. I just don't go on about it on horse forums.

lol, great one, Straightforward

Apathy is the reason we have Trump.

Next.

Who is apathetic? Piedmont and I just explained how we support science through our full-time jobs. What are you doing to promote science policies away from the DDBB?

I'm not sure what preaching about science to a group of well-educated, middle aged, and I'd daresay left-leaning dressage riders does to advance your purported cause. Since you invoked Betsy DeVos, I trust you are engaged somehow in promoting science education in the public school system.

I don't see the relationship between acupuncture opinions and Trump.

ETA: I do a lot of science communication and education in my field, and being condescending and pedantic is the quickest way to alienate people and undermine your goals for those communications.

Condescending and pedantic is in the eye of the beholder.

Forget owners. I asked some evidence-based vets why other vets offer non-evidence-based treatments like acupuncture, chiro, etc. and how embarrassing the situation is. There are a lot of reasons some having to do with a DVM not being a research degree and that they really don't understand that the treatments have zero evidence. Other reasons are that their clients demand it. I guess I am okay with financial Darwin Awards but only if they don't come at the expense of real treatments.

People trained in science generally have a respect for intellectual honesty. That is what these posts are about. It is just trying to make people think critically about this stuff and maybe it would extend to other areas. We have Trump because there is a lack of critical thinking skills.

The other thing is the vet section should not just be for treatments that work. It should include mention if treatments have no evidence. If vets don't know some treatments don't have evidence of efficacy then random owners are screwed.

Wow that's all I can say is wow and you're welcome to walk in my shoes any day of the week and do better.

exvet wrote:Wow that's all I can say is wow and you're welcome to walk in my shoes any day of the week and do better.

Tell that to the vets who told me those reasons. They do walk in your shoes and that is their opinion.

I just am a little flabbergasted at the situation given how vets are the cream of the cream academically speaking. Of course even Nobel physicists know how easy it is to fool oneself...

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard Feynman

I spend a lot of time trying to avoid fooling myself in my work and it is hard sometimes. Some people spend no time trying to avoid fooling themselves.

Tsavo wrote:Condescending and pedantic is in the eye of the beholder.

Well, if that's how it's perceived by the person you're trying to influence, then it is. Doesn't matter whether you think you are coming across that way or not.

StraightForward wrote:...
I'm not sure what preaching about science to a group of well-educated, middle aged, and I'd daresay left-leaning dressage riders does to advance your purported cause...

OMG SF! leaning to the left is why you drop your right shoulder! If you think you’re dropping the right shoulder because you sit at a computer, you’re obviously fooling yourself

Tsavo wrote: We have Trump because there is a lack of critical thinking skills.

Respectfully, there is a forum for political discussions that is more appropriate for speculation about our country's government.

Do you refute the scientific evidence supporting acupuncture as having effects on specific conditions and biomarker levels?

Clinical veterinarians do not receive the same training in research and interpretation of research findings as PhD-level researchers. Many are not familiar with the rigorous evaluations and requirements of clinical trials and research or how to thoroughly assess the results. This is not to demean anything that they do - their curriculum often has a different emphasis, just as that of human doctors does.

StraightForward wrote:
Well, if that's how it's perceived by the person you're trying to influence, then it is. Doesn't matter whether you think you are coming across that way or not.

There's always going to be someone who misreads others' motivations, but IMO, that's their problem. If they're interested enough they can always ask for clarification--and then choose to believe whatever they want to believe.

Tsavo, regarding the opening post about Novella...here is a quote from him when he was on the Dr. Oz show (my bolding):

"But I wasn't dismissive. I said I carefully reviewed the
literature and the research, and I didn't say it couldn't
possibly work. I said, when you look at it, it doesn't
work. So I don't buy the argument that, because it's
somehow ancient wisdom, or used by a lot of people--that's
the argument from popularity--that it works, therefore.
You know, people were doing blood letting for thousands of
years, and that was the standard of care. We don't think
that anyone thinks that blood letting is a good way to go
these days. "

So like some other skeptics of alternative medicine, they are nixing it because thet haven't found scientific evidence to support it, but I don't think any can say for certain that it doesn't help certain things.

That said, you should know by now that the majority of posters on this forum support chiro/accupuncture and other alternative approaches. When you put up threads like this, it only risks creating animosity. Same goes for subtly insinuating 'non-lettered' people and those that aren't your political party are ignorant and not critical thinkers.

musical comedy wrote:
That said, you should know by now that the majority of posters on this forum support chiro/accupuncture and other alternative approaches.

The majority that has weighed in, anyway. Which of course, is irrelevant when it comes to whether something works the way it's promoted, or not.

When you put up threads like this, it only risks creating animosity. Same goes for subtly insinuating 'non-lettered' people and those that aren't your political party are ignorant and not critical thinkers.

Some controversy isn't necessarily a bad thing on a discussion group, or at least it isn't if readers understand that when they want to support a topic they should discuss it (rather than the poster or their motivations), and when they want to squelch it then staying silent works best for that.

musical comedy wrote:Tsavo, regarding the opening post about Novella...here is a quote from him when he was on the Dr. Oz show (my bolding):

"But I wasn't dismissive. I said I carefully reviewed the
literature and the research, and I didn't say it couldn't
possibly work. I said, when you look at it, it doesn't
work. So I don't buy the argument that, because it's
somehow ancient wisdom, or used by a lot of people--that's
the argument from popularity--that it works, therefore.
You know, people were doing blood letting for thousands of
years, and that was the standard of care. We don't think
that anyone thinks that blood letting is a good way to go
these days. "

So like some other skeptics of alternative medicine, they are nixing it because the haven't found scientific evidence to support it, but I don't think any can say for certain that it doesn't help certain things.

Yes I would agree with his comment but add that after thousands of studies, including using toothpicks, acupuncture does not work as advertised. AT PRESENT, acupuncture is complete nonsense apart from placebo. That could change if anyone shows that it works as other than placebo. The world has been waiting.

In re your other point, should we just let the ourselves be overrun with faith healers, creationists, and flat earthers?

kande50 wrote:Some controversy isn't necessarily a bad thing on a discussion group, or at least it isn't if readers understand that when they want to support a topic they should discuss it (rather than the poster or their motivations), and when they want to squelch it then staying silent works best for that.

You must know that doesn't happen.

Tsavo wrote:In re your other point, should we just let the ourselves be overrun with faith healers, creationists, and flat earthers?

I don't think that is happening. Those things are not high on my list of concerns.

musical comedy wrote:

Tsavo wrote:In re your other point, should we just let the ourselves be overrun with faith healers, creationists, and flat earthers?

I don't think that is happening. Those things are not high on my list of concerns.

I envy you. I have broken a tooth grinding my teeth in my sleep over the situation in government. I think it is probably a treatable level of anxiety.

By the way, "unlettered" just means someone is untrained in some field. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Einstein was unlettered in scoliosis and I know way more about it than he did. But he is orders of magnitude more intelligent than me.

I am unlettered in vet med so I had to ask vets WTF is up with non-evidence-based treatments. It's not that I can't understand the reasons. It is just I don't have the training to know what they are on my own.

Knowledge =/= intelligence. Everyone on this group can understand plenty. They, including myself, just don't have certain pieces of knowledge that matter.

Tsavo wrote: I have broken a tooth grinding my teeth in my sleep over the situation in government. I think it is probably a treatable level of anxiety.

I lose sleep and have anxiety over the government situation too, but it is for different things than you. However, I only discuss these things with like-minded friends and associates. I'm not into bickering and debating back and forth with people on anything. I don't see a point to it. That includes dressage training too.

demi wrote:

StraightForward wrote:...
I'm not sure what preaching about science to a group of well-educated, middle aged, and I'd daresay left-leaning dressage riders does to advance your purported cause...

OMG SF! leaning to the left is why you drop your right shoulder! If you think you’re dropping the right shoulder because you sit at a computer, you’re obviously fooling yourself

I take it quite literally.