DefinitelyDressage.com

kande50 wrote:

StraightForward wrote:
Well, if that's how it's perceived by the person you're trying to influence, then it is. Doesn't matter whether you think you are coming across that way or not.

There's always going to be someone who misreads others' motivations, but IMO, that's their problem. If they're interested enough they can always ask for clarification--and then choose to believe whatever they want to believe.

But OP claims to be on a single-handed crusade to correct flawed thinking and promote science. That is going to be a fruitless endeavor outside of any choirs she may find to preach to, because in general, people aren't out there looking for their minds to be changed, so won't see rejecting some roughly delivered message as "their problem." Instead, they'll just chalk it up to scientists and their ilk to generally being a bunch of out of touch, ivory-tower assholes, and they'll be even harder to talk to next time. I think one of the biggest challenges of science is finding effective ways to communicate it because frankly, a lot of scientists suck at it. It's easy enough to just say "their loss" instead of learning how to do better.

Tsavo, I never said that people lacking in formal education aren't intelligent. My brother never finished fourth grade, later got his GED, and is one of the most brilliant people I know. He engineers medical devices and also does sports equipment design and earns way more than I ever will. I mention the PhD researchers I work with because you have frequently mentioned working with researchers, and I was simply pointing out that you are not in a unique position. It's just that this is a dressage board, so most of us don't feel a need to discuss our educations, careers and political opinions and activities.

Back on topic, and to be clear, I don't have a strong position on acupuncture, having never used it on myself or my horses. However, I would try it if my options were running low (for horses or myself).

Tsavo wrote:I am unlettered in vet med so I had to ask vets WTF is up with non-evidence-based treatments. It's not that I can't understand the reasons. It is just I don't have the training to know what they are on my own.

Here’s the catch. Only approximately 45-60% of medicine (human or veterinary) is “evidence-based”. Much of it is still based on expert opinion, experience, and what has worked (or seemed to work) in the past.

I find the title of this thread interesting & revealing, “why acupuncture is complete nonsense.” To me, it speaks to perhaps a somewhat black-and-white approach , which doesn’t fit most scientific/medical questions in my experience. It also speaks to bias, which all scientists (and lay people) must be aware of in terms of how it colours our perceptions, approach, interpretations, and emotional reaction to hypotheses, premises, and study results (among other things).

In this case - acupuncture - it is neither true that it is “complete nonsense”, nor is it true that it is a panacea that heals all things (or most things). The reality is somewhere in between those two extremes. There are quite good studies that show a significant (statistically) improvement in the outcomes measured after acupuncture compared to other treatments for certain disorders. There are many poorer-quality studies that do the same thing. There are quite good studies that show no difference, and there are poor studies that do the same. My point is that one cannot, and should not, use so-called “evidence-based” as a lever to throw out an entire field (or support an entire field) as that is very unilateral and biased in itself.

Maintaining a level of skepticism is healthy, it’s how we have made progress in various areas of medicine. Being rigidly unilateral and calling it “evidence-based” (when in fact the balance of the evidence for acupuncture, in this case, does not read as a unilateral “it doesn’t work” or “it does work” result) can, for some, turn this interesting discussion into a “for” and “against” entity. I think that’s unfortunate.

My bias is that I am trained & currently practicing in both human medicine and veterinary medicine. I also have a post-graduate veterinary doctoral degree that included prospective research & a resultant thesis that I had to defend. I am trained in scientific methodology. I am also trained in both human acupuncture & veterinary acupuncture, but I do not currently practice it except for quite infrequently. Why? Because my western medical practice is SO busy that I just don’t have enough time and enough exam rooms to take the time needed to perform acupuncture properly. Plus, I work in Canada where, in human medicine, the bulk of mainstream medical care is covered financially by the government, but allied health services are not covered for all (this includes very evidence-based, tried & true entities like physiotherapy, occupational therapy, and also things like acupuncture —- although, some physiotherapy in my province IS covered and some physiotherapists use acupuncture among other treatments, so in those cases patients can receive acupuncture within their physio appt without having to pay extra). For me, there are no billing codes for acupuncture so I’d have to charge for it, and I choose not to (when I do use it, I do not charge for it ... it’s part of whatever else I do with the patient that day).

Anecdotally, when I’ve used acupuncture on either a human patient or a veterinary patient, in the vast majority of cases improvement in the treated condition has occurred. My veterinary patients are wildlife patients, so it’s a challenging field in various ways. Were the improvements solely because of acupuncture? I’d say, probably not. Would they have improved if I had not performed acupuncture? We’ll never know because this is anecdotal. Was the patient appreciative? No idea for the wildlife (but their improved function would imply it was beneficial), but the humans ... definitely (including one lady who was a HUGE skeptic, somewhat needle phobic, but let me perform acupuncture for her incredibly sore neck/shoulder with ++ muscle spasms, and nothing else had helped (medication, stretching gently, physiotherapy, I think she tried chiro, too but I can’t remember). I did the treatment, then didn’t see her for 3 mo so figured it hadn’t worked and she wasn’t pleased. I was wrong. I saw her 3 mo later (for another reason) and she was thrilled and hadn’t been back because the treatment had resulted in immediate improvement that lasted.).

I won’t go into the studies in acupuncture that show significant benefit - they are out there and searchable by anyone interested. My post is to suggest that acupuncture is neither “complete nonsense”, nor is it “the best thing since sliced bread”. It’s somewhere in between (like so, so many other things in medicine!).

Thank you for that insight, Deanna.

Excellent post DJR and I have to say I am in awe of your vast knowledge and schooling. Dang, you have some incredible achievements there!

DJR.... that was epic! Thank you for your insight!

StraightForward wrote: It's just that this is a dressage board, so most of us don't feel a need to discuss our educations, careers and political opinions and activities.

I have discussed what I am not educated in (i.e., what I am unlettered in) much more than what I am lettered in. Again, you read into my posts what is objectively not there.

I have NO training in vet med. I have years of being a researcher but not in vet med. General principles apply and you don't need to be lettered to think critically.

Tsavo wrote:

StraightForward wrote: It's just that this is a dressage board, so most of us don't feel a need to discuss our educations, careers and political opinions and activities.

I have discussed what I am not educated in (i.e., what I am unlettered in) much more than what I am lettered in. Again, you read into my posts what is objectively not there.

I have NO training in vet med. I have years of being a researcher but not in vet med. General principles apply and you don't need to be lettered to think critically.

You've argued a lot that you should be able to own a Lameness Locator due to your background in research. That infers education and experience. I believe it's fair to make a distinction between inference and assumption. As long as you leave us guessing, I'll assume that your "letters" are A.A. in underwater basketweaving.

The LL requires a knowledge and feel for statistics mainly on top of understanding the basis of the measurements. At a minimum, a person with an undergrad degree in a hard science (with stats) could learn to interpret the results.

I have a doctorate in a hard science and have done post doctoral work in addition of almost three decades of work. None of that intersects with vet med though I use biology tangentially and discuss chemical results in the context of biology.

And you?

StraightForward wrote:

Tsavo wrote:I am single-handedly trying to counter DeVos's campaign against science.

You aren't the only scientist or otherwise well-educated person on this board.

Damn right.....

Are we uploading our CVs now? ahahahahhaha

Tsavo wrote:

musical comedy wrote:Tsavo, regarding the opening post about Novella...here is a quote from him when he was on the Dr. Oz show (my bolding):

"But I wasn't dismissive. I said I carefully reviewed the
literature and the research, and I didn't say it couldn't
possibly work. I said, when you look at it, it doesn't
work. So I don't buy the argument that, because it's
somehow ancient wisdom, or used by a lot of people--that's
the argument from popularity--that it works, therefore.
You know, people were doing blood letting for thousands of
years, and that was the standard of care. We don't think
that anyone thinks that blood letting is a good way to go
these days. "

So like some other skeptics of alternative medicine, they are nixing it because the haven't found scientific evidence to support it, but I don't think any can say for certain that it doesn't help certain things.

Yes I would agree with his comment but add that after thousands of studies, including using toothpicks, acupuncture does not work as advertised. AT PRESENT, acupuncture is complete nonsense apart from placebo. That could change if anyone shows that it works as other than placebo. The world has been waiting.

In re your other point, should we just let the ourselves be overrun with faith healers, creationists, and flat earthers?

Hmmm...as far as I can tell, no one here has ever been any of those things.

Tsavo, this is an easy one. Don't like acupuncture? Don't get it done. Don't waste your money!
However, I am one who believes in its ability to help. I guess that makes me a faith healer, creationist or flat earther?
Yet somehow I am smart enough to keep this board technologically sound.

THE THREAT OF ANTI-SCIENTIFIC THINKING TO MODERN SOCIETY

It is these concerning effects that led German Chancellor Angela Merkel, a trained quantum chemist, to warn “that Western societies are faced with a ‘post-fact world in which emotions and ideology threaten to suppress scientific knowledge and evidence.” Her concerns are real, especially with the threat posed by anti-scientific thinking to the environment, to health and well being, and to democracy overall.

https://thinkinc.org.au/the-threat-of-a ... R4KXQli56o

I think there is a big difference between anti-science, and supplementing.

Meaning, there is a big difference between "I will do acupuncture instead of the surgery/treatment/taking the medication I need" and "I will do the necessary treatment and also do acupuncture because it makes me feel better".

I don't think anyone is arguing the former. and I think there is genuinely no harm in the latter.

blob wrote:I think there is a big difference between anti-science, and supplementing.

Meaning, there is a big difference between "I will do acupuncture instead of the surgery/treatment/taking the medication I need" and "I will do the necessary treatment and also do acupuncture because it makes me feel better".

I don't think anyone is arguing the former. and I think there is genuinely no harm in the latter.

Exactly - If I was told I needed pharmaceuticals to promote and accelerate the healing process, I would definitely use them. I use holistic healing treatments as a supplement, in fact, I have a reflexology appointment this week, and I.CAN'T.WAIT.

I have never had an issue with Financial Darwin Awards if evidence-based treatments are used also. These are innocent creatures.

Tsavo wrote:I have never had an issue with Financial Darwin Awards

What an incredibly rude comment. Are trolls allowed on this forum?

Tsavo, You have already been warned once. You are being incredibly rude.

New discoveries happen all the time. Just because we can't see it, feel it, hear it, doesn't mean "it's" not there.

The only knowledge I have of acupuncture is thru a friend with a hip problem. She suffered for years with that hip. I don't know the who, what, and why of the situation, only that her daughter finally convinced her to see an acupuncturist in Portland, OR. One treatment and she could sleep without pain meds, several treatments later and she was walking without a cane and able to get in and out of the car by herself. Quack medicine? Maybe, but who cares when it helps? And it was worth it to her to pay out of pocket.

I personally will try "alternative" medicines before I will take drugs. To each their own. OP, you don't sound like someone that's trying to enlighten the world on science. You sound like someone on a soapbox in a park.

Gestalt wrote: OP, you don't sound like someone that's trying to enlighten the world on science. You sound like someone on a soapbox in a park.

Well so what? I don't understand what appears to be animosity against someone that wants to post an opinion on a product, procedure, training method or anything else having to do with horses. All would be well and good if it was something most here accepted. After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

musical comedy wrote:

Gestalt wrote: OP, you don't sound like someone that's trying to enlighten the world on science. You sound like someone on a soapbox in a park.

Well so what? I don't understand what appears to be animosity against someone that wants to post an opinion on a product, procedure, training method or anything else having to do with horses. All would be well and good if it was something most here accepted. After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

Gestalt wrote:OP, you don't sound like someone that's trying to enlighten the world on science. You sound like someone on a soapbox in a park.

That's what all the people at war with science say.

musical comedy wrote:

Gestalt wrote: OP, you don't sound like someone that's trying to enlighten the world on science. You sound like someone on a soapbox in a park.

Well so what? I don't understand what appears to be animosity against someone that wants to post an opinion on a product, procedure, training method or anything else having to do with horses. All would be well and good if it was something most here accepted. After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

What is being called rude is that she is calling people who believe in acupuncture stupid.
Don't like it? Don't get it.

I don't believe in the lameness locator. But I have never called Tsavo stupid for believing in it.

musical comedy wrote:

Gestalt wrote: OP, you don't sound like someone that's trying to enlighten the world on science. You sound like someone on a soapbox in a park.

Well so what? I don't understand what appears to be animosity against someone that wants to post an opinion on a product, procedure, training method or anything else having to do with horses. All would be well and good if it was something most here accepted. After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

As in all faith-based systems, playing the "rude" card is the only card they can play.

Someone needs a time out.

musical comedy wrote:Well so what? I don't understand what appears to be animosity against someone that wants to post an opinion on a product, procedure, training method or anything else having to do with horses. All would be well and good if it was something most here accepted. After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

Same here. And I think there may be some humor impairment going on, too.

So now you (MC) and I will probably get a time out, too.

kande50 wrote:

musical comedy wrote:Well so what? I don't understand what appears to be animosity against someone that wants to post an opinion on a product, procedure, training method or anything else having to do with horses. All would be well and good if it was something most here accepted. After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

Same here. And I think there may be some humor impairment going on, too.

So now you (MC) and I will probably get a time out, too.

No, you won't. You are disagreeing with me that this was meant to be humor. Disagreement is fine. However, telling someone they are stupid because they don't agree with your point of view is not ok.

Chancellor wrote:
No, you won't. You are disagreeing with me that this was meant to be humor. Disagreement is fine. However, telling someone they are stupid because they don't agree with your point of view is not ok.

Whether it was meant to be humor or not, I see nothing rude in any of it, nor did I catch the stupid comment.

These 'discussions' about therapies frequently seem to devolve in to bizarre tangents about SCIENCE! FLAT EARTH! DENIERS! WAR! NORMALPEOPLE HELD HOSTAGE BY DENIERS blah blah blah. It wasn't about acupuncture any more. Caregiver Placebo! My God, we have heard it all before ad nauseum, here, there and everywhere.

This is a dressage board. Thank you Laurie for trying to keep it that way.

I do not use acupuncture. I have seen it bring relief for short term things. I do not see it make lasting changes in a horse's way of going. That said I do not pretend to discount the experiences of others. I have some extremely bright vet and MD friends who use it and get results.

Since I think acupuncture and chiro treat symptoms I tend to go to Feldenkrais and other things that to me treat causes. But I don't argue with success and I certainly don't feel the need to shriek to strangers on in the internet about how they choose to treat their animals or themselves. No one can argue that acupuncture could be deleterious. Why some people can NOT let things go, year after year after year after year, on forum after forum, no matter how many times they are tie outted or kicked off is beyond me.

Chancellor wrote:

kande50 wrote:

musical comedy wrote:Well so what? I don't understand what appears to be animosity against someone that wants to post an opinion on a product, procedure, training method or anything else having to do with horses. All would be well and good if it was something most here accepted. After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

Same here. And I think there may be some humor impairment going on, too.

So now you (MC) and I will probably get a time out, too.

No, you won't. You are disagreeing with me that this was meant to be humor. Disagreement is fine. However, telling someone they are stupid because they don't agree with your point of view is not ok.

You are confusing intelligence with knowledge. Because of this you bullied me for no reason.

Hey, who's going to call the Mayo Clinic and tell them they're full of balderdash and to get with the "science" program?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-proced ... rLfbz6b2sE

This is equivocating on the claim that acupuncture "works".

There is no evidence that acupuncture works AS ADVERTISED.

There is plenty of evidence that acupuncture works VIA PLACEBO. Mayo says acupuncture works because there is evidence placebo works. Nobody can doubt placebo can work for some things. Placebo is real and evidence-based.

Tsavo wrote:There is no evidence that acupuncture works AS ADVERTISED.

There is plenty of evidence that acupuncture works VIA PLACEBO. Mayo says acupuncture works because there is evidence placebo works. Nobody can doubt placebo can work for some things. Placebo is real and evidence-based.

Actually that is basically what it says on the Mayo website.

The benefits of acupuncture are sometimes difficult to measure, but many people find it helpful as a means to control a variety of painful conditions.

Several studies, however, indicate that some types of simulated acupuncture appear to work just as well as real acupuncture. There's also evidence that acupuncture works best in people who expect it to work.

Another believer in acupuncture here. I’m thankful that I have an open mind to try things that may help me or my animals.

Wow, Lizzardwoman hasn’t changed at all. My dog gets acupuncture and it makes an observable difference. I’ll be sure to tell my vet (who does the acupuncture) that it’s voodoo and try to explain to the dog that it’s not really working and he really doesn’t feel better.

Dreamer wrote:Another believer in acupuncture here. I’m thankful that I have an open mind to try things that may help me or my animals.

If you had evidence you wouldn't have to settle for belief.

musical comedy wrote:

Gestalt wrote: After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

Yes, but the OP had no response at all to DJR's excellent post with direct experience on the subject as a medical professional, so I'd say there is no discussion happening, just more ranting about flat earthers.

StraightForward wrote:Yes, but the OP had no response at all to DJR's excellent post with direct experience on the subject as a medical professional, so I'd say there is no discussion happening, just more ranting about flat earthers.

I do not read all the posts. This decisions are not made based on trying to avoid points made. So your opinion about a post is not relevant to my seriousness toward the topic.

Tsavo wrote:

Chancellor wrote:

kande50 wrote:
Same here. And I think there may be some humor impairment going on, too.

So now you (MC) and I will probably get a time out, too.

No, you won't. You are disagreeing with me that this was meant to be humor. Disagreement is fine. However, telling someone they are stupid because they don't agree with your point of view is not ok.

You are confusing intelligence with knowledge. Because of this you bullied me for no reason.

You know, you are more than welcome to go elsewhere. No one is telling you that you have to stay here and get bullied. I am frankly really sick of YOU throwing around the word bully. I don't think you have any idea what it is to be bullied.
I gave you time out to give you time to think before you posted anything else that would get you in trouble. A one day time out.

And now you are claiming someone ELSE bullied you for calling you out by your former name on UDBB. Bye Bye.

kande50 wrote:

Chancellor wrote:
No, you won't. You are disagreeing with me that this was meant to be humor. Disagreement is fine. However, telling someone they are stupid because they don't agree with your point of view is not ok.

Whether it was meant to be humor or not, I see nothing rude in any of it, nor did I catch the stupid comment.

The stupid comment is what I draw from the "financial darwin awards" comment that Tsavo made.

Code3 wrote:Wow, Lizzardwoman hasn’t changed at all. My dog gets acupuncture and it makes an observable difference. I’ll be sure to tell my vet (who does the acupuncture) that it’s voodoo and try to explain to the dog that it’s not really working and he really doesn’t feel better.

Oh, this is lizard woman? Now it all makes sense. I'm a dope for falling for the troll.

Chancellor wrote:
The stupid comment is what I draw from the "financial darwin awards" comment that Tsavo made.

So it was inferred rather than stated?

musical comedy wrote:

Tsavo wrote:There is no evidence that acupuncture works AS ADVERTISED.

There is plenty of evidence that acupuncture works VIA PLACEBO. Mayo says acupuncture works because there is evidence placebo works. Nobody can doubt placebo can work for some things. Placebo is real and evidence-based.

Actually that is basically what it says on the Mayo website.

The benefits of acupuncture are sometimes difficult to measure, but many people find it helpful as a means to control a variety of painful conditions.

Several studies, however, indicate that some types of simulated acupuncture appear to work just as well as real acupuncture. There's also evidence that acupuncture works best in people who expect it to work.

Perhaps it does work better for those that are expecting it to work. But of the person that I know, she did not want to go, she did not "expect" it to work.No, it did not cure her hip issue, but it helped her immensely.

To each their own. If someone can afford a different type of treatment and it does no harm, don't worry about their pocket book. This thread has nothing to do with actual science.

StraightForward wrote:

musical comedy wrote:

Gestalt wrote: After all, this is a 'discussion forum' is it not? If someone doesn't want to discuss the topic, it's simple to ignore it. I guess I'm missing what is being considered 'rude' here.

Yes, but the OP had no response at all to DJR's excellent post with direct experience on the subject as a medical professional, so I'd say there is no discussion happening, just more ranting about flat earthers.

Yeah, do you realize she is a DVM and an MD?

I strongly support chiro and accupunture. My horse wouldn't likely be sound with out the chiro care after a stifle injury.

My 17 year old GSD had regular acupuncture (every two weeks) the last year of her life. She always walked out of that office better than she walked in. It definitely improved the quality of her life. Interestingly, she wasn’t that great of a patient, except for the acupuncture. She found it very relaxing.