What would you do?

blob
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What would you do?

Postby blob » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:13 am

MM and I have been working on changes for some time now and they are still late within the stride more often than not. My instructor has reached a point where he doesn't think we're ever going to get it unless there is a physical issue standing in the way. So, he's suggested I investigate physically.

This is the type of thing that could easily become a lot of money and frustration. But I'm not opposed to rule out some things.

So... My question is where would you start if you were in my shoes?

One option is having the body worker out to see if she feels anything/to see if the work makes MM feel different. This is a lower cost and will have some benefit in that MM loves having body work done, so at least she'll have a nice massage day. I might get some indication if there is significant weakness or tightness anywhere.

Another option is to go to the vet and start getting x-rays of hocks/stifles to make sure they are ok. This is much pricer. But I don't hate the ideas of having x-rays of her joints at this stage in the game just to see where she is/how her joints are managing work. I never did a ppe on her (can't really do one on an ungentled mustang), so it could just be useful to have.

I could also not go down this route at all. Or I'm sure there are other directions/routes

piedmontfields
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Re: What would you do?

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:12 pm

Having just had a sudden injury, rather than the questions you are having about performance, I'd suggest just spending some money. It's a lot more fun to spend money seeking improvement to a simpler problem!

Bodywork might make a huge difference. Base x-rays are not that much $. You might simply need to adjust your maintenance approach a bit. I will also mention that while many of dressage people say "any horse can be trained to second level", the truth is that not all horses can or want to do (probably related to physically being able) the weight carrying required for even 3rd and 4th level. It is more work and that level of effort can reveal some things about a given horse's physical/mental capabilities.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby StraightForward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:25 pm

Bodywork seems like a good starting point, and certainly won't hurt. I might also suggest trying out SureFoot pads, which you could also use with RP. I bought my first two pairs this summer, and then added two more pairs about a month ago, and have started incorporating them into the training. They can help with proprioception, and muscular blockages.

It was really interesting - I had the bodyworker out last Wednesday for Annabelle because she seemed fairly sore in her psoas/ribs when she was worked on a few weeks prior. Bodyworker said she felt really good, nothing out of the ordinary. I wasn't able to be there for the full session, but this person rarely does any adjustments, mostly massage. Anyway, my ride on Thursday was awful. A had trouble with her leads, was spooky, not through, etc. I put her on the pads Friday before my ride, and she really got into it (they'll sometimes close their eyes and sway, which she did), and our ride was super, she had zero lead problems and was a totally different horse. My theory is that the bodywork unlocked something with her, and the pad session helped her release the restriction the rest of the way. Felicitas van Neumann-Cosel has been using the pads as part of her training - Wendy interviews her in one of the SureFoot webinars that you can watch on YouTube. She is finding them helpful to get horses past certain blocks in their training.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:25 pm

That is really interesting, SF! Another reason I enjoy this board---so many thoughtful and open folks who like learning about new care and support options.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby StraightForward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:19 pm

I keep expanding on how I'm using them. Coincidentally, Thomas Ritter did a long lecture on lunging yesterday for the Straightness course I'm in, and at the end I asked him for some ideas on getting Tesla better at lunging. Although he hasn't used the pads himself, he threw that out as one way to improve her body awareness so she might feel more balanced. So last night I did some in-hand work with her, spiraling out onto a circle and SI down the arena wall, then put her on the pads and repeated a couple times. She was definitely placing her front feet in an interesting way after being on the pads - like she was suddenly much more aware of her front legs and testing out their relationship to the ground. I'm going to keep working at this over the winter and see if she will eventually be more willing on the lunge.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby Moutaineer » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:19 am

Depends on what available resources you have, and how much money you want to spend.

If you have a good sport horse lameness vet available, that would be my first conversation, (but that's because I know my vet would understand what I was asking.)

I'd want him to watch the horse go and see if he could see anything subtle that i was missing. I might get my farrier involved in this, too as he's incredibly good at picking up things I miss. Based on their views, I'd move on to further diagnostics as recommended. X rays, ultrasound, etc. Then Id work out a treatment plan with them and take it from there.

If both of these movement specialists watched her go and thought she looked perfect and the problem was between her ears, or they felt it was a "strength" issue, I'd back burner the changes completely for 6 months and work on straightness, strength, collection, everything but changes, and let her forget what she's probably thinking currently is correctly what you are asking her to do. Then, I'd go to a different trainer, as discussed on the other thread, and start again with them.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby blob » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:44 pm

I don't have easy access to a vet I really trust when it comes to subtle issues. I trust them to take and read an xray, but not to to an evaluation of a horse's movement that isn't actively lame. So, if I'm going to involve the vet, I would likely go straight to xrays. Her movement is fluid and correct in all 3 gaits and her hocks are very active, so I think it would take the eye of someone who really understands dressage and I don't have access to those vets without a road trip.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby Hayburner » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:14 pm

Lots of great suggestions here!

Depending on what all your body worker does or doesn't t do, you may want to start with a chiropractor.

We have a few different ones come and they are all different in what they do. My horse was having issues bending to the right, just so happened we were due for body worker to come. She did her thing and then suggested I have the chiropractor come out.

He fixed her right up, her shoulder was "out". Luckily, it hasn't recurred.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby Tanga » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:54 pm

Hm. Interesting. I'm going to add to this in the direction you are going with body work. I don't spend the money for that because I don't have it, but I think the idea is the right way to go.

If you've read, I've had a lot of trouble getting Quilla to do the one tempis and change the right hind. All of the other changes are clean. I've tried tons of things. I am making progress by doing a couple, then working on quality canter, then doing a few two tempis, which she always does cleanly, then working on quality canter, and back and forth. I don't think this applies to you, but maybe there is something in it. Like maybe extended canter, canter on the spot, extended canter kind of work, so it's all about strengthening.

I've also been working everyone in hand a lot with passage and piaffe. Are both sides late evenly, or just one side? I'm thinking maybe you could do in hand work and really concentrating on improving coming up and under in whatever kind of work so he is strengthening everything in there to be able to come up more and quicker in the change?

Also, just thinking of doing stretching on your own, which I think is good for any horse any time. You can look it all up, but grabbing each leg and slowly stretching forward, back and sideways. Every horse I've ever done that with loves it once they learn to relax and give. I think about myself and how stiff I always am, and when I exercise, I am always pushing to strengthen my weak areas, and at every possible chance stretch, stretch, stretch those tight areas.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby blob » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:48 pm

Thanks, Tanga-- great suggestions. MM is good about stretches but I should be good about doing them more often with her! I am thinking of taking my massage gun out to the barn to see what she thinks of it. I don't think it's going to make any earth shattering change but it might just be a thing that she enjoys and feels nice and also helps manage any tightness.

I do think focusing on something that will build the right kind of strength will be helpful for both of us. She has shown an interest and affinity for piaffe and passage work so maybe we can focus on that. Even if i can't ever get changes, I may as well get the experience of teaching piaffe and passage.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby Flight » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:33 am

It's definitely a game where you can pour shitloads of $ in and not come up with anything. If it was me, I would take my horse to a sports medicine type vet or a decent teaching hospital, somewhere that has experience with these subtleties. The nearest to me is about a 3hr drive away, but I would do it. Trouble is, you can have 'stuff' on xrays but is it clinically relevant? Is it what is causing the trouble? That's where you need experienced vets to help, I think.

I'm so cynical of bodyworkers, but if you have one you trust and who is experienced - go for it. I've had a good farrier tell me my horse was lame in it's shoulder, who then later blocked sound in it's foot.

The late behind change - Norsey was like that for ages. I had to do some quite remedial type exercises to fix it.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:02 pm

Blob, I think focusing on other strengthening exercises sounds like a really fabulous idea. Especially piaffe and passage type work. I would think too, that it would also help highlight if there is in fact a pain issue or just strength or mental.

And as a rider, I think it's good to focus on improving other stuff too.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby tlkidding » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:53 pm

If they are late within the stride and not late as in the front leg lands before the hind has started changing, I don't think it's a big deal. Is it one direction mostly? Does the horse do them clean free lunging or in the pasture?

If they are not clean when the horse does them on their own, then I'd maybe look into physical issues. Also, have the vet flex the hocks - I think slightly sore hocks can hinder something like this, even if they don't really affect any other movements.

My horse was slow left to right, even though his left lead is his better lead. We had to speed up the right hind coming off the ground and jumping through - most horses have a hind that likes to stay grounded and one that likes to fly. I had to get my whip in the new outside hand early and tap the croup a few times ahead of the aids (a few times I did a firmer tap while having a good grip on the bucking strap :o ) and make sure he was not leaning on his left side at all (in fact, we would do a bit of counter haunches in and leg yield in the preparation).

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Re: What would you do?

Postby khall » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:53 pm

Blob have you ever used Dr Dan Carter out of countryside for lameness? He’s my go to. He was a farrier before going to vet school then interned at Rood and Riddle. Awesome vet with such a keen eye.

I also recommend Dr Jennifer Miller at Prairie River holistic for acupuncture and chiro. She’s in middle Georgia but travels all over

If it were me I would look into physical issues first.

Piaffe is always a good way to strengthen them for the other work

I think it would be worth having some eyes or hands on MM.

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Re: What would you do?

Postby blob » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:33 pm

Khall, Dr. Carter sounds fantastic and I will reach out to them if/ when I decide to do a full lameness work up.

Right now, I'm starting with two things:

1. Our usual vet is doing x-rays of hocks and stifles. She's not someone I think is particularly good at sport horse diagnostics, but she can read an x-ray well and I think regardless of anything else, it would be good to have x-rays on file for MM as some kind of baseline since she was never x-rayed when I got her

2. The bodyworkwr is coming out on the 7th.


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