Horse looks awful on lunge but fine under saddle

[Lipsmackerpony88]

This is something that has confused me for a while now. Lynx just looks awful when you throw him on a lunge line most of the time. He has no forward impulsion and just like shuffling and stiff. But under saddle he looks so much better.

I think part of it is he is just easier to motivate from the saddle. And maybe the circle of a lunge is just too hard on him with the stifle.

I really don't owe lunge him very often. It doesn't seem to make sense to do it if it's not going to do his body any good!!


But as always I'm kind of stuck knowing if this is just the normal stifle/SI rehab or if something else is going on or we need to change plans? It does seem like the more work he's in the better... He had yesterday off and this morning just look like crap on the lunge after the farrier came. Which I also think is part of it and why I am suspecting that the SI is more play than originally thought.

I'm a little frustrated as in one hand I feel like things are going really good but at the other sometimes when my gosh I hate to see my horse shuffling around like that on the lunge. Maybe it is just working on his response to the whip. But then part of me feels like there's a reason he doesn't want to freely go forward. Bugger.

I'm thinking that I'm going to have a different bed out as last time mine was just almost defensive? Since she did the pre-purchase exam. And she agreed he looked really stuff and blah and we made a few changes but here we are still.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Im frustrated but maybe expecting too much too soon? I'm not frustrated about doing any rehab or anything like that It's more than I just worry that there's something not being done that we need to do or look at.

Like I said he seems to look fine under saddle so maybe we just need to stay the course.

[blob]

Lunging correctly is something that takes training (for horse and rider) just the way riding correctly does. IMO a horse should be taught to move correctly on the lunge, and if they are not moving correctly on the ground either that is a lack of ground training or it is demonstrating something that is difficult for the horse that needs to be developed (or both).

When you lunge do you lunge with tack? Do you do transitions? Does he understand verbal cues and listen to them (walk, whoa, trot, canter)? Do you make sure you are keeping a consistent circle or do you end up wandering? Does he stay out to the end of your line? Are you able to use a lunge whip and get an appropriate reaction? Is he able to maintain the work without constant cueing? Just like with riding does your lunging session involve both a warm up and a cool down on either end of the more focused work?

The answer to all of those questions should be yes. And if it isn't that is either a case for refining your ground skills or advancing his education.

Do you have to be able to have a horse that lunges well? No. But lunging is a very effective tool and a good lunging session should be as beneficial if not more beneficial than a riding session. The main reasons I like to lunge: There are some challenges that are sometimes easier addressed from the ground; it can be useful to be able to see the work; sometimes it is good to give the horse a break from rider issues (one sidedness, unsharp aids, etc); building a strong ground work relationship improves the overall relationship.

I think it is easy for people to think lunging is kind of a throw away (I'm not saying you think this). But just like riding, it takes time and effort to be good at lunging and a horse does need to be correclty trained for the task

[heddylamar]

Echoing blob, the first few months (years) of lunging can look like two people in a horse suit. Things like frequent transitions (for some horses this is every 3-4 strides), change of direction, and learning to really engage the horse during every single step will eventually lead to good work.

I prefer to introduce lunge work in hand, pushing them away from my body on a 15' lead line. On that short line, I introduce them to a leading hand, lunge whip, cues, and body language. Only once all of that is understood — and responded to all the time — do we graduate to a lunge line.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Blob, I usually don't have tack on but sometimes a bridle. I need to see if the Cavesson that I have will fit him as I think that might help. I will say he's better in a bridal versus a halter and that's what the halter he just kind of wants to look around and be counterbent.

I do strive for a lot of transitions. I will say he is not very responsive to the whip at all. But honestly he probably hasn't had a very formal education as far as the lunge line, because I know he comes from more of that Western round pen background. And was taught with a flag not a traditional whip.

He used to be a little better about it before the stifle injury which I think always eeks me out a little. I just worry that he's not wanting to lunge well because he's in pain but it's so hard to know because like I said the education on the lunge isn't there.

We do a lot of in hand work with the bride and a dressage whip. But maybe I do need to make a point of incorporating a lunge session once a week at least.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Basically he's just so "behind the aids" , counterbent, hollow and shuffling around. I'm used to more forward types so this definitely is a challenge. I found the best success so far if he's in a bridle, And I basically have to keep the whip out of sight unless I need to use it. Definitely have to be very aware not to nag. I also noticed that he responds better if I hold the whip pretty high.

l will admit I was a bit irritated with him this morning (which is very abnormal for both of us.) I absolutely is probably not very clear in my intentions when trying to lunge him as I was pretty sure on time and just trying to get him to focus. I ended up doing more in hand stuff as I thought it was more productive given the short time and lackluster results I was getting.

[Tanga]

What blob said. It is actually more difficult to get a horse to work correctly on the lunge. In the saddle you can help and support them a lot more. I don't lunge very often, and when I do it, I work on very specific things. I'm not a big lunger.

[exvet]

I'm going to echo the theme, WHAT BLOB SAID. I started lunging Junior a few months ago with the goal of once a week on the line. He often (though not always) will start out stiff. I think some of it depends on the weather, how much playing and chasing of the others he's been doing prior to me getting home from work, etc and quite honestly his emotions. I have found lunge work over fences and simply work on the line to get him over his back and working into the outside rein invaluable. It is not easy, and I am usually doing as much aerobic work as he is in order to keep him forward and honest in the connection. IF I'm NOT working him over fences I have him in a surcingle, a lunging cavesson and side reins (sometimes one and sometimes two). If I'm working him over jumps and poles I have him in a saddle and lunging cavesson. I ALWAYS have a lunge whip. To use one takes a lot of effort for me because of my issues; but it is absolutely necessary to have LEG IN THE GAME. Proper use of the lunge whip I find essential.

When I had a round pen, I used to do more ground/lunge work with my beasts and then got away from it when I had to sell my ranch. I've gone back to it out of necessity. I too am not a big lunger but part of that has to do with the fact that it usually is easier to get a horse to move properly under saddle; but, in my case I was getting desperate to find a way around my arm/shoulder issues.

I do not 'decide' on lameness issues, soreness, etc until I've had them on the line for several minutes asking and getting forward and have truly given them an opportunity to work over their back. I know that I can be stiff coming out of the starting block and it's only fair to the horse to realize that they need an opportunity to warm up too. I don't put side reins on until I've given Junior a few minutes to warm up without and then they go on and he's expected to really work. I know he's working properly by the improvement in his self-carriage and the fact that I get exactly what gallup used to always refer to as the slight foam/wet glistening lips and drool dripping down the chin as a sign of bit acceptance and proper positioning of the head as up and open. Oh and of course being a vet, I always, always, always know if he's even in his paces and making the appropriate use/placement of his legs. If I don't' get some sign of bit acceptance or forward I know I'm not working hard enough or demanding enough from the horse OR there is something medically going on that I need to address.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

This is all great. I will try not to worry too much that he looks kind of yucky sometimes on the lunge, but instead work on our education there. I don't want to lunge him too much but I do think it's a skill we need to have.

I think I need to work on my whip handling. I also think some side reins done fairly loosely would be good for him. I'm going to see if my dressage trainer will help me work on this next week as part of our lesson. I would do it today but it's going to be 70 degrees and he's pretty wooly! So that probably will not help us out any and I really need to ride as I got my saddle adjusted yesterday. So next week it will be on the agenda to work on this.

[blob]

I also think some side reins done fairly loosely would be good for him.

I know it has become popular to be anti-side rein. But I think correctly adjusted side reins are a very valuable tool. When we ride, we ride with contact. We ride the horse into that contact to get correct movement and get the horse over the back. Side reins should work the same way. Lunging without them is not going to get the same kind of quality work as ridden work will get because there is nothing to channel the forward impulsion. But of course you need to make sure your Lynx understands the proper forward cues first.

Like Exvet, I start without any to let the horse warm up before putting them on. And throughout a session I will also adjust the height and length of them, just like I would my reins during the course of a ride. With a greener horse I wouldn't do as many adjustments.

To teach initial whip and verbal cues, I will start on a smaller circle and focus on just 'walk on' and 'whoa'. And I usually do not move until both those are very sharp. My goal is always that the whip is not necessary for the initial ask. Meaning, I will be holding the whip but the horse should walk or trot or canter just on verbal cue and then the whip can be used within the gait to get more impulsion when needed. But always carrying the whip and following. The whip should be held up, parallel to the ground (not dragging) and should follow the hindquarters as the horse moves.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Blob, totally agree on the side reins. The reason I have not used them yet was because I know that we are working on the education to the whip and forward first. That's why I think for the first time I will do it as part of a lesson so I can make sure that we are ready to try that. I know he has had something similar to a side rein on in his previous western training So I know he will be well behaved about it but obviously he needs to be forward for them to help anything.

That's part of why I don't lunge him much too. For one of course because of the stifle and I just didn't feel like it was helping his body out in any way like a good ride. But it is time to revisit the education.

I think taking a step back like you said and even just walking and stopping and just making everything really clear to him is a good step. I also might get a different whip to try as well. For my own ease of handling as I'm already not very coordinated with that stuff lol!!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

We did end up lunging today because I had a sinus headache. I still rode but we just did half and half for my lesson today. It actually was really good in the trainer pointed out a few weird things I was my body that might have given Lynx mixed signals. Like hold in one of my arms up way too high and she said she thinks he interpretates that as maybe slowing down cue. Much better today and he looked good and felt good under saddle.

Thanks for all the comments that really helped put things in perspective. I'm going to work on this a little bit every week.

[StraightForward]

Glad it is going better! Tesla has gotten better with the lunging as she's gotten more training under saddle. The past couple days I've set out poles to encourage her to move out and around them as she always wants to fall in badly going to the right. Once she started staying out on the circle to avoid the poles, she started swinging through her back and barrel and stretching more over the topline. I also had her trot over raised poles a couple times to get her moving a little more freely.

WRT side reins, I only use running reins, with both attachments going to the side (not the Vienna type that attach between the front legs). I find they allow the horse some space to find a comfortable neck carriage, while still setting some boundaries. In our last lesson, it was recommended to get her bitted up and do more T/C transitions, so that is what we are doing a couple times a week. I've been double lunging more frequently, but that was sort of a Tesla-specific thing to give me enough control so that she would be more respectful. However, I also like it because it allows changes of direction in the walk and trot, and more frequently than regular lunging.

[Tanga]

My take on lunging is I don't like side reins, no matter how well used. It's too easy for the horse to pull against them instead of give to them. I prefer a degogue or chambon. They don't hold a horse anywhere, but put pressure on the poll and bit if the frame comes to high and bump them down.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I typically like to use Vienna reins. I have a chambon But I haven't tried it yet.

Straightforward, where did you get your sliding side rings? I've been looking for that type as I know that's more desirable with how it connects.

Honestly he just needs something to help keep him a little straighter at this point but I can definitely play with using different things. Double lunging would be great But I think we need to really establish the forward with the whip before I have all kinds of things in my hands ha ha.

[StraightForward]

These are the ones I have. The full is not super big. I added caribiners on both ends and use the max adjustment to make them long enough to Tesla: https://www.ebay.com/itm/272189123437?h ... SwiYlegdBe

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Thank you so much!!

[Chisamba]

This is something that has confused me for a while now. Lynx just looks awful when you throw him on a lunge line most of the time. He has no forward impulsion and just like shuffling and stiff. But under saddle he looks so much better.

to me this simply means he is ridden more skillfully than he is lunged.

[exvet]

There are definitely risks to lunging in terms of injury to the horse; but, such can be avoided by not doing it too much, by conditioning your horse to it gradually building up the expectations and requirements but still not over doing it. Really it's not too much unlike riding. I like long lining because it allows me to avoid some of the pitfalls with lunging that can fall into some of these traps - allows easier (thus more frequent) changes of direction, side reins don't become a crutch, etc.....but.....there are some weakness of mine that can too easily be taken advantage of with the use of long lining no different than when I'm riding.

To avoid injury, I try to subscribe to the following:

1. Keep the sessions short and don't forget that the horse needs to be conditioned over time to greater demands and expectations no matter how short you keep the session.
2. I keep the circles as large as possible and simply keep closer to the horse and move a lot in order to achieve both. Honestly lunging is not an activity where I just stand in the center of a circle.
3. I change direction a lot and try to keep the work balanced.
4. I try not to get too greedy in order to avoid muscle fatigue - again reward and repeat another day. I also will alternate my in hand work; so, that we're not lunging 20 meter circles day after day after day. One day is lunging over poles and fences before I ride to loosen the back and build strength, another day may just be work on the lunge to improve self-carriage and acceptance of connection (I prefer sliding side reins), another day may simply be work in hand to practice half=steps periodically switched up with lunging to get some stretch over the back and so on.

I find if you learn how to lunge correctly and approach it's application as you would any training regimen - work different muscle groups each day, don't work on tight circles all the time, etc and switch it up with other compatible work routines you really shouldn't be causing any damage to your horse, keeping in mind what the inherent weaknesses are and condition accordingly. How many vaulting horses do you see lame as a result of their lunging? Honestly the good ones stay in the game sound for quite a long time, partly because they aren't just lunged all the time but they are lunged a lot.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Exvet good tips. My Dressage trainer did recommend I lunge a bit more (frequency not duration) to improve the skill but also to help him build muscle while doing something different. We do a lot of pole work undersaddle and in hand but I haven't lunged over any yet.

I told my trainer it's a skill I want to work on. As usual, it's not so much that I don't know how, it's realizing what my body is doing vs what I think I'm doing. Like keeping my arms looser while lunging. I tend to try to "help" him too much which results in tension in my body and desensitization for him!

One simple change in my arm helped him on the lunge so much. Eye opening.

[khall]

Lunging is definitely a skill that is good to learn. I am in the camp now of not using SRs. I’ve used all manners of SRs and chambons etc over the years. I don’t find the need to now because I incorporate lateral work while lunging. One of my big exercises I like to use is what the western people call a drift. Basically it’s a yielding on the circle drifting the horse in a spiral out but in SF. I also often SI in hand during lunging doing SI on the circle setting the horse up for the inside bend and correct position before actually lunging. I also go back to this exercise if the horse loses their inside bend. I go baco and forth between closer in lateral work on the circle then out on the lunge WTC. I also want to be able to drift the horse at T and C. But that takes time for them to gain strength and understanding.

I find my horses with this work absolutely looks great on the lunge and I can add in more demanding work like half steps and collection and medium as they develop in the work.

I do want to do more long lining at some point. I have new long lining reins to play with. Cedar is good at long lining and in hand work so will be good to work with.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Lunging is definitely a skill that is good to learn. I am in the camp now of not using SRs. I’ve used all manners of SRs and chambons etc over the years. I don’t find the need to now because I incorporate lateral work while lunging. One of my big exercises I like to use is what the western people call a drift. Basically it’s a yielding on the circle drifting the horse in a spiral out but in SF. I also often SI in hand during lunging doing SI on the circle setting the horse up for the inside bend and correct position before actually lunging. I also go back to this exercise if the horse loses their inside bend. I go baco and forth between closer in lateral work on the circle then out on the lunge WTC. I also want to be able to drift the horse at T and C. But that takes time for them to gain strength and understanding.

I find my horses with this work absolutely looks great on the lunge and I can add in more demanding work like half steps and collection and medium as they develop in the work.

I do want to do more long lining at some point. I have new long lining reins to play with. Cedar is good at long lining and in hand work so will be good to work with.

We are long ways from that Khall! Honestly just getting him to be more forward and respect the whip as an aid at this point lol!! Last week was a bit better. I think it needs to be a weekly thing for a while. At least once a week.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I prefer not to use side reins or anything if possible. But my thinking is I always try and look at whatever work we are doing and ask is this helping him physically or mentally in any way? Or is this posture harmful or not helpful? Of course there can be an argument for with or without in regards to that. I just think it's a case-by-case thing and sometimes a momentary thing too.

Right now once we get a little more understanding on the lunge I think Lynx will benefit for a little bit of some side reins or something. Long lining too. It's more he just needs kind of like some barriers to stay a little straighter and not be such a tourist on the lunge. Not so much the need for anything longitudinally if that makes sense.

I also would say that I adjust my side reins much looser than a majority although I would think a lot of the posters here would probably adjust them similarly to me.

[khall]

Lynx should be able to do SF on the circle. Mark started every horse this way from the greenest of green to the more educated. I’ll try to get some video to share.

What was interesting when I went to audit Frédérique Pignon formerly from Cavalia and known for his liberty work. One of the first things he would work on the horse was this SF on a circle for balance. It allows the horse to be more settled mentally and more willing to go forward because of that balance

[Lipsmackerpony88]

We are working on shoulder fore and shoulder in so I know he can do it but it's just figuring out how to properly ask for it on the circle and get the response. I would love to see video if/when you get some.

It would be very beneficial given how he wants to travel on the lunge.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

We are working on shoulder fore and shoulder in so I know he can do it but it's just figuring out how to properly ask for it on the circle and get the response. I would love to see video if/when you get some.

It would be very beneficial given how he wants to travel on the lunge.

I think I will lunge him today and play a bit.