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I'm going to have to start looking at purchasing a saddle for Phoenix sometime in the next 6-8 months. I'm not currently able to go out and buy one, but will be starting pooling money for the purchase now. Until now I've used the saddles the barn owns where I board her, but there's a lot of big changes coming up and my options are about to be very limited. Unfortunately, the saddle that fits her best (but I don't like at all for me) is about to go up for sale. I have learned over time I don't like buying things just because they are cheap and then the quality and feel is lacking, so I'm hoping to budget for a 2000-2500 purchase. However with her only being 4 and knowing she's likely still going to change a lot, where would you start? This will be a huge purchase and commitment for me, so I want to start looking into brands, styles, etc sooner than later so I can feel confident buying when the time comes.

A side note- I do have someone at the barn who used to saddle fit for Trilogy, so a saddle fitter is close at hand if needed as she develops and changes. I'd just prefer not to buy a saddle and then a year later need a different one.

In your situation I would look at something like a ReactorPanel or WOW saddle (the former are US-based, I think WOWs are English? so might not be widely available in the US). Both are easy to adjust and have good resale if you find you need to change the saddle completely.

Don't get your heart set on not having to change saddles once your filly matures (unless you go with a soft tree like a Vogue). They can change mucho from 4 to adult. My gelding went from a RP to a hoop tree Black Country (RP was just not wide enough for him and you cannot widen their trees)

I don't know anything about the WOW saddles or how they fit. Do you have any idea what shape tree she will need? If she is a A shape then there are way way more choices out there. If she needs a hoop tree that limits you quite a bit. They tend to be pretty dang pricey too except for Duett (which are very economical for what they are and hold up well in my experience).

You know, I really don't know! Oh boy! I just had to google what a hoop tree is
I do know that even at 4 she's already pretty wide. She's also slightly chunky at the moment although I'm sure there will be some trade off between the fat and building muscle as she gets back into shape.
I really like the look of the Bates Isabell saddles, but I haven't sat in one or ridden in one to know if it would be as comfortable as it looks. I know I like knee/thigh blocks because I'm still not a great enough rider to keep my legs back enough and stable enough on my own.

Phoenix if she is wide as a 4 yr old then more than likely she will end up in a hoop tree. The Bates Isabell is not a hoop tree. Get a good saddle fitter to give you an idea of what shape she is (hoop needed, curvy back or flat back etc) then look at saddles that fit her criteria. I would not go shipping saddles back and forth until you had some idea of what she will need.

Short anecdote re saddle shopping: Rip my gelding started out in a RP, it was a saddle I had already and at 3-4 it fit him ok. By 5 he was WIDE and I had to go saddle shopping (I hate saddle shopping). Contacted Trumble Mountain Tack and one other fitter, sent off all kinds of tracings to both. Trumble sent me a Isabell to try, they must not have even looked at the tracings because even with the widest gullet in Rip was way wider and saddle did not fit. So got a gauge and checked (handy dandy gauge that works with the Isabell and the other Wintec saddles with changeable gullets) he was way wider with the gauge went up to (white I believe for widest gullet). So out those shipping costs due to incompetent help at Trumble. Other one had a favorite saddle, sent me a couple, none worked for Rip. One even bounced up and down on his back (got told by the saddle maker "our saddles don't bounce" so I sent him video, never heard back). I ended up learning more myself of what Rip needed and ended up with a Black Country Vinici X (hoop tree) that fits him, his sister and my 4 yr old filly well, go figure I got lucky! Does not fit the old mare now though.

Good luck I hope you can find a competent saddle fitter, I have yet to find one.

I would not recommend Bates. They don't have wide TREES, even if they have wide gullets.

WOW are fully interchangeable - you can swap in and out all the parts to get something that suits.

Silk no need to be snarky, in using gullet I was using the language the saddle company uses:

https://www.doversaddlery.com/wintec-gu ... p/X1-1584/

https://www.doversaddlery.com/wintec-gu ... p/X1-1582/

So yes it is the GULLET that is not wide enough for my horse. More A shaped than U shaped like a hoop tree. Wintec and Bates use the same system, or did when I tried it. I used this gauge pictured to check Rip for fit. Way off.

The WOW looks interesting but I am not fond of the CAIR system. It is bouncy when you have a horse that has a good bit of trot to ride. True with the Heather Moffat Vogue too, their panels are foam and are bouncy.

It would help if you could take tracings of her back and also post photos of her back, as well as the size and model of the saddle that fits her.

I'll say that I find Black Country saddles tend to fit a range of horses nicely. I also have a ViniciX and it fit my 15.1 hand round Appaloosa, but also is a near-perfect fit for my 16H Oldenburg mare, and has worked on Susan's (Kyra's Mom) 15.2H Azteca mare with a SaddleRight pad. I have Annabelle in an older BC (Riley or Eden, not sure) that I picked up for $1,000 and had reflocked to fit her. Rather than spending your entire budget on THE ONE saddle, I might look at getting something in the $1000 range to use until she is more mature. Some of the Albions and Barnsby saddles have a fairly open head even if not technically a hoop tree, and tend to fit pretty well. You can pick up a used Albion SLK for like $1,200, which will leave you some reserve in case you need to get something different as she matures and muscles up.

I'd also stay away from Bates/Wintec for a wider horse. Not a fan of the Cair panels, and the rider balance is not as good as an Albion or Black Country.

Pictures are easy, I can get some tomorrow. I'll have to do some reading on how to do the tracings, that's new to me too.
I wasn't familiar with the CAIR panels, and after some reading agree I don't want to go that route.
It would actually be really great to spend less than what I was planning, I just want to make sure we're both comfortable and the saddle is decent!

No snark whatsoever, Khall, just emphasis on 'tree', which needs to be wide for the type of horse Phoenix has. My experience is that Bates are simply not wide enough trees for much more than a Thoroughbred.

Cair is different to Flair, which is the WOW system.

I personally love Albions, haven't ridden in BCs but they are similar as far as I know. Wasn't sure if Albion was something you can get freely in the US, and, they are not as adjustable as something like an RP or WOW, which might be required if one wants a saddle that can suit a youngster while they are growing. However, if you can get one for a reasonable price, it might be OK to buy/sell/buy/sell as the horse changes.

FWIW, YMMW, my mare fitted a MW Albion perfectly. I sent her away for a month of work with my instructor, she muscled up so much the saddle didn't fit at all. She was in a 13" RP for a bit and finally ended up in an XW Albion that worked really well. I hated the RP for me, but it got us through a patch where I could easily have had three or four different non-adjustable saddles.

I find i have to be careful to find a saddle designed both for my comfort and for the horses comfort. I need a narrow twist and so if the horse needs a hoop tree, i need the seat of the saddle designed for me, they dont do these things well saddle makers, also, they are so in the mode of wide channels, horses with an angular rib cage do very poorly on a wide channel there is too much lateral instability. There are so many things that saddle makers claim that are not supported by anything but their advertising. Just my ten cents of opinion, i bought an adjustible tree thoroughgood , ( yes only the gullet is adjustable, but they call it an adjustable tree) because it was cheap and adjustable and i was not sure what my horses would be needed after the fire. I lost my four favorite saddles in the fire. anyway, the cheap thoroughgood has proven to be comfortable for so many of my different horses. it is the most used addle in the barn.

Interesting is that so many saddle sellers ask only for wither tracings. The shape and length of the back is just as important.

Saddle balance comes into play too. Some saddles are forward balance and others center balance. Some saddles have a flat spot where you sit, and others are more scoopy. Stirrup bar placement is also important. Set too forward can present a real problem for some people. So can set too far back. The ideal is a stirrup bar that has different positions. You can't usually find that in the less expensive saddles.

Terminology does get confusing. Gullet is the part in front of the saddle. Channel is the space between the panels, imo, but some people might call that the gullet too. What does it mean if the 'tree' is not wide enough.

Going back to what Chisamba said, for some of us it is not just about fitting the horse. Some of us riders present a real fitting challenge. I do. It would be rare to find a saddle fitter that understands the human anatomy and how it relates to saddle fit. I found one, but sadly he turned out to be unreputable.

khall wrote: So out those shipping costs due to incompetent help at Trumble.

Trumbull Mountain? They have an excellent saddle fitter, although maybe not clairvoyant enough to fit saddles remotely?

kande yes Trumble Mountain. Not in my experience. I sent wither tracings to them they did not use them before sending me the Isabell. No way they could have. All they would have had to do was apply the gauge to the tracings and understand that saddle was no where near wide enough for Rip. I did end up buying my Vinici X from them, but I did not use their fitting service just bought the saddle.

MC the other fitter I sent tracings to required the entire back in increments and then along the spine itself. Much more involved, yet she still did not get it right on a couple of saddles she sent me. I have also had at least 2 different fitters here not much help from them either.

chisamba I'm interested to hear your experience with the thoroughgood. I've looked at them but never pulled the trigger but have always wondered how they were to ride in. My ViniciX does well for me so I have just stuck with it now. May have to explore a different saddle with upswept panels for my filly because she is so short backed. Trouble is: Is there a hoop tree saddle with upswept panels? I don't know, never had to go there.
Also the Vinici has a narrow twist, one of the few hoop trees that does. I think the Duett Fideolio does too and it is a third of the price of the Vinici now. I got mine when the it was pricey but not outrageous like it is now. Finding a ViniciX used is about impossible, lots of Vinici regular tree.

silk my experience with the RP is that they are not that adjustable. Their tree is the size of the tree period and if it is not wide enough they do not adjust in that way (like a regular saddle my Vinici adjusts up or down one size). No amount of redoing the panels on the RP can make a too narrow tree fit. Which is why I sold my RP when it quit working for Rip as a 5 yr old. Again don't know enough about the WOW saddles to understand them. Have looked at them but not gone beyond that. The FLAIR is still using air for flocking. Would think you would still have the bouncing issues like the CAIR does.

I have ridden in Albions long ago but it has been awhile now. Liked it well enough then but have not looked at them in a long time. Not sure how well they would fit my wider loads here.

khall wrote:Finding a ViniciX used is about impossible, lots of Vinici regular tree.

The person I sold my first ViniciX to when I bought mine with the custom roll/flap has it for sale. It's an 18" wide tree with serge panels in very nice condition. Just in case anyone is interested.

I inquired about a Duett Fidelio a few years back and was informed that it was for a curvy-backed horse, whereas the Vinici is more for a straight-backed horse, so they are not at all interchangeable if the info I got was right. I test rode a Duett Largo once and it was about the most hideous thing to ride in that I've ever tried.

Silk - Albions are very easy to come by in the US. I don't they they have a lot of adjustability, but if say an SLK works, it shouldn't bee too hard to sell and buy another in a different tree size as needed. They're well known, so pretty easy to resell, but I wouldn't pay more than about $1500 for a used one with the expectation of getting my money back on resale (unless it's one of the super tricked out new ones).

Another saddle that could be fantastic if you can find it is the Mike Corcoran Master Dressage. They have a very open head/hoop style and usually serge panels. Mike designed most of Black Country's best models, but no one really knows his saddles here, so it's possible to come by a deal. I trialed one for Annabelle that was just amazing to ride in but way too wide for her. I honestly thought about keeping it just in case I ever had a horse it fit; it was that nice. I think it was $1200 or so. I've heard that Mike is wonderful to work with - he runs his business out of Texas but travels around the US and builds western saddles too.

Chisamba, I use Kate Wilson at Dutchess Saddlery for fitting. She is pretty close to you and travels all over. She is trained by the UK and doing this for 23 years. Her husband also does leather work. Perhaps you are already using her.
https://www.dutchessbridlesaddle.com/home.html

khall wrote:kande yes Trumble Mountain. Not in my experience. I sent wither tracings to them they did not use them before sending me the Isabell. No way they could have. All they would have had to do was apply the gauge to the tracings and understand that saddle was no where near wide enough for Rip. I did end up buying my Vinici X from them, but I did not use their fitting service just bought the saddle.

Was it when Kitt was still there? Trumble changed ownership a few years ago

MC the other fitter I sent tracings to required the entire back in increments and then along the spine itself. Much more involved, yet she still did not get it right on a couple of saddles she sent me. I have also had at least 2 different fitters here not much help from them either.

<sigh> Yeah I know. Even when you have a new saddle made to measurements it still often doesn't fit. Many cases I've seen of that.

chisamba I'm interested to hear your experience with the thoroughgood. I've looked at them but never pulled the trigger but have always wondered how they were to ride in.

My best friend has one that she has used on a couple of her very large/wide horses. The thorougood has the exchanable gullet plate feature. There are 3 thorowgood models : the cob type with low pommel head and S-bar, the standard with regular pommel head for normal withered horses with R-bar and the high withered version.

May have to explore a different saddle with upswept panels for my filly because she is so short backed. Trouble is: Is there a hoop tree saddle with upswept panels? I don't know, never had to go there.

<sigh> I have a very short backed mare too and I need an 18in seat. I've squeezed myself into a 17.5 because I have no choice. She is also quite wide and needs the U shape gullet. Right now I'm riding in an older used Amerigo. There is a new Amerigo Model out now called the Pasubio. Google it. It's for short backed horses. Also, a couple Schleese models are made for shorter backs. The Obrigado can have what they call a 'relief wedge' for short back horses. Another Schleese model also is made for the shorter back. Of course, both the Amerigo and Schleese are very expensive even used.

Cool! Got some saddles to look at! Though I have not been a fan of Schleese just sitting in them. Never ridden in one. Right now my ViniciX should work ok on my filly. It fits her in the shoulders it is just a bit long for her very short back. It is an 18 though I can ride in a 17.5, not sure how much that would change the fit on her though. I actually thought about looking at one of the baroque type saddles for her later. They often have a leather tree.

MC I don't know if Kitt was still there or not, it was roughly 6-7 yrs ago when I first went shopping. I knew it changed hands, did not have any issues when I bought the Vinici from them. But I knew what I needed by then.

Saddle shopping is a PIA and the prices are all over the place, from the $4-6000 higher end models to the cheaper synthetics, then the whole saddle fitter deal is a bit of a night mare too.

SF I owned a Duett Encore and loved that saddle but it only fit my mare Anna (my filly's mom now deceased). I sold it to someone on here I believe out in CA owned an Arabian. I have also sat in the Tango and liked it fine, not ridden in any of the others. I was impressed with how well they hold up. Mine was in very good condition and I ride a good bit, for their price. A friend just bought one for her wide OTTB g, she loved the Vinici X but could not find one in a 17 or 17.5, so went the Duett road. Not sure which model of Duett she ended up with but she said that the company was just lovely to work with.

Just thought I'd add that, after trying SF's saddle on my wide guy (it wasn't wide enough and it was too big for me) I dove seriously into researching hoop trees. I wound up with a brand new Lovatt and Ricketts Ellipse with changeable thigh blocks. I think it is the first saddle I've ever bought that, not only fits my horse well, but fits me too! It's also the only saddle I have ever bought that wasn't used. Long story short, Tio is happy and so am I.

PR I know your mare is still young and you have not had time to work her much. With Tio, I did wait until he was physically mature and in regular work so that I could find the best long term solution. In the meantime, I rode him in a saddle that he tolerated, but really didn't fit (wrong tree shape.)

Whoa! Vinici X not wide enough Sue?! Yikes Tio is a barrel with legs! That is a wide saddle.

Yes, he really is, Khall. Surprisingly, he doesn't feel that wide when I'm on him though. The L&R I bought is an xw and it just fits, no extra room!

Sue B wrote: In the meantime, I rode him in a saddle that he tolerated, but really didn't fit (wrong tree shape.)

I would be a lawn dart SO FAST if I tried that with Beorn.. He's quite the prima donna about his tack fit. Later in life he has realized that he will not tolerate any discomfort while working.

I agree with others to first check out used in brands that tend to have higher re-sale values, so you don't lose as much money when/if you need to change, but you'll likely have to rely on tracings to help you assess the fit, as used saddles can be pretty individual (for example, not all Black Country use the same tree, and even saddles with the same model could have been customized with different tree, etc.). I keep an eye on used saddle listings on FaceBook and ebay to have a general idea of what is trending. Of course, my horse has lately decided that he loves a curved tree and swiss style (close-contact) upswept panels, which are definitely less popular. I'm screwed on reselling this saddle, I'm sure.

OP: If you have a saddle fitter/used saddle seller near by who would do an appointment with you and let you try various saddles, I think it would help you tremendously in narrowing down the general features you and your horse need for when you are ready to buy. It would be worth a some $ to do that.

I got a lightly used Sankey (Borne) for about $2500 4+ years ago and have been very happy with it (my mare does well in saddles with full gussets to accommodate her shoulders). It is a wide, but more of a normal wide (not Tio-style XW!). It also has fairly short flaps, which suits short-legged me. I like this saddle so much that I would be quite willing to buy a new one if needed.

I do think once you figure out your requirements/features, you may get lucky with a good deal on a less popular but very serviceable match. Personally, I would not buy a saddle with the thought of re-sale. I'd just buy the best I could afford that suits me and my horse.

Lots to consider here. The saddle I'm currently using is a Hulsebos, but I haven't gotten any information past that on it yet.
I'll do some looking into local saddle fitters/used sellers. I think getting a baseline idea on what she'll need, and some education for myself might be the best way to start. The more I read on this thread the more I'm realizing I don't know about saddles

piedmontfields wrote: Personally, I would not buy a saddle with the thought of re-sale. I'd just buy the best I could afford that suits me and my horse.

My fitters generally give me a list of several brands that they have found to work well for horses like mine; from that list I'll generally try to find a few representatives of each brand to get an idea of the fit for me and the horse, as well as the quality. If there are several possibilities, I'll choose the one that is least likely to linger for sale or on consignment so I can have a healthier budget for the next saddle, when necessary.

That said, while my gelding's back and preferences/opinions have changed pretty significantly with more correct work, he is not a challenging fit, so there are generally multiple options available from different brands.

It's not really reasonable to expect a saddle to fit a more advanced horse if it fits the horse as a youngster. Horses change a LOT over time.
I would buy good quality used, take good care of it, and re-sell it when you need something else.

As far as the WOWs go, you love them or hate them. They're a nice concept, but I have heard many
people say they feei like a pile of parts instead of an actual saddle. Others rave about them. Bottom
line is they are very expensive, so try more than a couple rides before you part with the cash.

StraightForward wrote:

khall wrote:Finding a ViniciX used is about impossible, lots of Vinici regular tree.

The person I sold my first ViniciX to when I bought mine with the custom roll/flap has it for sale. It's an 18" wide tree with serge panels in very nice condition. Just in case anyone is interested.

Do you know if the saddle is still available? How wide is it, per se?

redsoxluvr wrote:

StraightForward wrote:

khall wrote:Finding a ViniciX used is about impossible, lots of Vinici regular tree.

The person I sold my first ViniciX to when I bought mine with the custom roll/flap has it for sale. It's an 18" wide tree with serge panels in very nice condition. Just in case anyone is interested.

Do you know if the saddle is still available? How wide is it, per se?

She sold it, but I just decided to sell mine. It is a ViniciX on the wide tree. Not ultra wide, but fits the bigger-shouldered horses. I had it made with a forward flap and a shorter block, so it's good for longer legs.

StraightForward wrote:She sold it, but I just decided to sell mine. It is a ViniciX on the wide tree. Not ultra wide, but fits the bigger-shouldered horses. I had it made with a forward flap and a shorter block, so it's good for longer legs.

What seat size SF?

musical comedy wrote:

StraightForward wrote:She sold it, but I just decided to sell mine. It is a ViniciX on the wide tree. Not ultra wide, but fits the bigger-shouldered horses. I had it made with a forward flap and a shorter block, so it's good for longer legs.

What seat size SF?

18"

If that's the one I tried out, it is super comfy, a real nice ride, and, of course, very well maintained.

MC you may have the same problem I will have with my ultra short backed filly with the ViniciX. It has the panels that cover more area and on my filly it is a bit long as a 18". I believe I will have to look for the upswept panels for her once she gets going or possibly look into baroque saddles made for these guys.

khall wrote:MC you may have the same problem I will have with my ultra short backed filly with the ViniciX. It has the panels that cover more area and on my filly it is a bit long as a 18". I believe I will have to look for the upswept panels for her once she gets going or possibly look into baroque saddles made for these guys.

Yes Khall. I can't buy an 18in saddle for her and I need one for myself. My fitter hasn't responded to my last two emails, so I assume she isn't interested in helping me. I do not want to spend 6k+ on a Schleese Obrigado but that is what I should probably get. Jochen is coming to my area soon, but it looks like his schedule is booked. I'm hesitant to ask for him to squeeze me in because I'm not ready to commit to that big expenditure.

<sigh> I need a short outside block and a forward flap and a recessed stirrup bar. Try to find that in a saddle short enough for this pony's back. Duh on me....I never thought about her back length when I bought her.

What are you going to put on your filly once she is started under saddle?

musical comedy wrote:<sigh> I need a short outside block and a forward flap and a recessed stirrup bar. Try to find that in a saddle short enough for this pony's back. Duh on me....I never thought about her back length when I bought her.

What are you going to put on your filly once she is started under saddle?

Yes, that is a tough combo to arrange. I seem to recall that Black Country could do an upswept panel, but I'm not finding that info now. Might be worth a call to one of the BC reps to see if they have a suggestion for a shorter-backed horse. The nice thing with the company is that they'll make a fully custom saddle for you, so if you want the Vinici monoflap design on an Eden tree, with a short, forward flap, they can do that. The custom block and flap on mine was done for no extra charge, and I had the saddle within a month.

There is going to be no lack of real estate on Tesla's back. It will be interesting to see how she fills out, but I'm thinking a Hennig or Custom at this point because her back is pretty straight, and I'll be in the market for something with big thigh blocks on that one.

I'm looking right now MC. The lovetts and rickets have an upswept panel but still with the flatter seat that I like. I just asked exvet what she has on her pony (hers tends to be wide in the shoulders too) it looks like it has upswept panels. I might also go with a baroque saddle for my filly to ride in mostly

I like the look of this one from DP Saddlery:
https://www.dp-saddlery.com/product-page/doma

There are others even more baroque looking. They come in leather tree which is traditional. These saddles are designed for the short backed Iberian horses.

I have sat in a DP, and oooh.... I was drooling.

I have been drooling over the DP saddles for abut 2 years now. Unfortunately I have not seen or sat in one yet,
I'm hoping they have a booth at WEG so I can finally get to.

Since I own an Iberian I thought I should give one a try, I have asked a few people if they think mine would be considered "short backed" and no one thought she was....

I'm just so comfy and secure in my darn Wintec Isabell I'm not sure I really want to change saddles yet.

Barbara Caido from DP Saddlery who runs the company in the US (she is German) I know personally and she is only about 1 1/2 hours from my farm:) I bought my Christ bareback pad from her and my latest soft caveson (I had one but it got messed up by my boarder's horse) I'm seriously interested in the one I posted. One of my boarders has one of the baroque saddles the school one. It is a bit too much cantle and pommel for me though.