And now....pasture reno...thoughts, experiences, insight from farm owners/managers please?

[fergusnc]

So, this may be mostly venting, or asking for validation, but am also very open to feedback....and THANK YOU for reading this novel!

1. I am not a patient person when working towards a goal, so factor that in.
2. I am pretty Type A about getting things checked off my list.
3. I am a big planner, and try to work smart not hard, thus look at the Big Picture from about six to eight months out.
4. Living in the midst of a Fixer Upper property, with 2,000 balls in the air, has helped me get better about items 1-3 but it's still a big challenge. And a lot of times there is no option to work smarter...but that is getting better as progress happens.
5. This place was a hobby cow and crop farm for decades...never horses....so some different chores and challenges with that transition.
6. Yes, I have had soil tests done...about two years ago when we first bought the place. I plan to pull samples this summer for updated results since the tests are free and since we have been "giving back" to the soil per the recommendations of neighbor farmers, Ag agents, etc.
7. Extra challenge to points 1-3 was/is somewhat related to the equipment we didn't have/have now as far as pasture management, and the fact that the horses came home at least a year earlier than planned due to boarding issues, and those 2,000 balls in the air I mentioned.
8. Progress has been made, FOR SURE! As of a couple of months ago, we now have 3 pastures fenced, each about an acre or a bit over. We just have the two horses. So, rotation is happening. One area is our barnyard, all pastures attached and separated with gates. Horses are in barnyard only at night with access to barn as they wish. During day that have one additional acre pasture, and really don't spend time in BY...just to get under fans now and then in summer. It's about a twelve hour split in warm seasons, more like ten and fourteen hour spilt in cold seasons.
9. DH and I both work full-time, so days off and weekends and evening hours are being used as best we can, while staying sane and married. And while keeping our middle aged bodies in working order. Ouch, sometimes, I gotta say!
10. About 6 months ago when I got my four-wheeler and drag, I started dragging the pastures every week to two weeks to break up poop for fly prevention, but also to manage the poop. Prior to that I scooped pastures EVERY DAY. The drag is flipped so it doesn't dig up any grass, just smooths out. If I flip it, I have the longer times that I wonder about using at seeding time? (Haven't worked out that seeding plan yet).
10. I have been better this spring about mowing to try to keep seedheads down, but that is tough with no tractor.
11. I am absolutely terrified of spray No myself...am convinced I will kill off every plant and scorch the earth, lo!

Here is the need for validation and/or suggestions/experiences....
1. I have been told by farmers and Ag agents to expect a good three years of management to get the hay fields to prime status...and they sure are coming along...but longer with the pastures. The weedy, weedy pastures.
2. I have some good weeds that the horses enjoy and are safe...and they help with mud such after having had lines run to barn in the dead of wet winepters right before horses arrived. Sigh. Crab grass, plantain weed, coastal Bermuda. Fescue is the recommended pasture grass around here. One field has soooooo much plantain weed the Ag agent was at a loss about management. Told me to bring horses home, let them eat it down, manage the soil and see where we landed. He wasnt sure grass seed would take hold, even thought about nuking the whole field and replanting, but I was not on board with that for several reasons.
3. Have had two different Ag agents who came out, as well as the farmers, that spraying isn't the best option...fixing the soil is the best option. The add seed in the Fall. And of course rotate pastures.
4. There are some toxic weeds in the fields. The horses ignore them, and have done so the whole 14 months they have been here. Knock wood. I get crazy and hand pull sometimes, but it just won't get it done. That is the reason for this thread...the toxic potential.
5. If all weeds---including the horse-friendly, yummy weeds---suddenly died out, there would be vast dirt areas in all three pastures.
6. There will be donkeys in the future, so am happy to have safe weeds in some percentage...like the idea for horses and donkeys to have to work a bit versus stand knee-deep in lush grass.

Our Guy who hays here and does projects for me at times mentioned a pre-emergent as a possibility next Feb/March as opposed to spraying the horse pastures. Said there is a granular form. So, question for you guys....do any of you use a grazing-safe granular pre-emergent? Or even a weed killer...is there a granular form that is safe for horses? (Again, my spraying phobia).
And am I on track as far as what I am doing, reasonable expectations for change and success, etc? Am I missing anything? The boys are healthy and happy and in great weight. They are out 24/7 except for meals, really bad weather, and some naps u set the fan and do so well with that routine physically.

Thanks again for indulging my ramblings! please excuse typos...got kicked off a couple times and am rushing to finish safely!

[kande50]

We have more pasture than the horses can eat for most of our grazing season, so I'm not all that worried about weeds except in the smaller paddocks where I hand spray the weeds I really hate (false baby's breath [Gallium] and curly dock).

We did fertilize our pasture with cow manure one year, which broke down slowly and lasted a long time, but we got masses of plantain which our horses, mules, and donkey don't eat. I think cows might eat it, but sometimes even cows won't eat some of the weeds unless they run out of what they prefer.

The amount of plantain did eventually decrease over a period of about 5 years, but we decided not to fertilize with cow manure again and now use pelleted fertilizer.

We mow our big pasture once a year and take first cut off it, since we need to mow it anyway for weed control.

We don't drag the pasture because I read somewhere that dragging just spreads the eggs out over larger areas. The horses I have now use the roughs, which I've read may be the best way to manage the manure in pastures, anyway.

[Tarlo Farm]

Horses at home for - oh gawd, almost 40 years now, in four different locations, same two-county area. I spray. I spray a broadleaf weedkiller on the pastures that need it, once, maybe twice a year depending on the weeds. I use a small sprayer, kind of like a backpack sprayer to kill stuff that may encroach from the edges.
Break up the manure, it dries it out and makes it less appealing to the flies. Also allows other critters easier access to the goodies inside (think of how free-range chickens tear it apart), and spreads the fertilizer effect. I seed in the Spring. I'm looking for a little disc to lightly cut the soil first to encourage germination.
I have a little over seven acres fenced into five paddocks plus a little extra area. With that space, I can now let one entire paddock rest for a season, spraying for weeds early in the season, then letting the grass grow and go to seed. I've found nothing works as well as letting a pasture/paddock rest for the growing season. It allows the roots to really set, and new native grasses to seed and crowd out weeds. BTW, my horses love crab grass. I leave it alone.
The paddock you have that's all plantain? I'd kill it and start over. Tell a local farmer you want to treat the pasture as a hay field and ask what they'd do. Then plant in your fescues or an orchard grass mix.

[texsuze]

I've forgotten how many acres of pasture you have on your property. Questions: is it essential that you have fields dedicating to growing/harvesting hay? If so, have you considered, or is it even possible in your area, to grow/manage hay from native grasses? Many folks are now foregoing the 'introduced' (non-native) grasses and are converting to native grass, 'haying' it with success, where that is possible. Obviously, lots depends on what is native to place, what is palatable/nutritious for horses, availability of appropriate seed where re-seeding is necessary, choking out the undesirable grasses with native, etc. etc.

My pastures (one 3-acre "sacrifice", one 4-acre, one 3-acre) are primarily for psychological and exercise use and not what I'd consider essential nutrition; they are a combo of native grasses, forbs (a.k.a. weeds) and introduced grasses (brought in around the 1940's), all of which are eaten to various degrees. I therefore buy hay from a local, reputable supplier (going for a load next week ) since pasture cultivation on my somewhat rocky terrain would not be an effective use of time or finances. I've only had horses here for 8 years, but it is a system that works for me.

Sorry, no great insights offered here! Different parts of the country often dictate such distinct management scenarios. And over time, so many things tend to change. But I agree that soil health, all the way down to the microbe level, is essential to any endeavor you undertake on your place.

[fergusnc]

Thanks all!
Hay fields...about 3 t additional acres. Horse pastures 3 acres. Property 12+acres...woods, pond, yards, extra trails. The hay fields are actually in awesome shape, just got 384 bales off of the 3.5 acres and it's lovely hay. Weeds are not an issue there until Fall, and it is round baled for cows. Can't really afford/manage them as horse pastures due to what it would cost to fence, not having a tractor, etc.
Pastures...so for those that spray...if I sprayed I thought about a sprayer that I can pull with four wheeler, but I really am worried about killing everything by mistake! Have you guys ever heard of a pre emergent? Or just never looked into it because you spray? What product do you use for spraying?
The plantain in pastures...I do have sections with well established fescue, so it's not all over entire pasture. And to kill the whole field...I don't think the other two pastures would do well while it grew back and became established. And the boys do like it, so that's good.
I read that fly eggs hatch every nine days so if you drag weekly it will mess them up enough that they won't hatch. Also heard breaking up patties will help the soil? I fertilized horse pastures with pelleted fertilizer in the Fall, before I had a four wheeler so had to use a push spreader. Our Guy fertilized hay fields with the spreading truck they have. I limed horse pastures with that solu lime I asked about in another thread...used the four wheeler. Will have the lime truck from the farm stor do the hay fields.
My vet once mentioned that he didn't want perfect grazing pastures...liked weeds and variety, so as not to have the horses eating all grass all day without having to work for it. That makes sense to me. Am doing I am good with happy weeds, it's just the toxic stuff that worries me, though so far the boys seem very smart about it.
Thanks for listening gang!

[Tarlo Farm]

My experience has been that horses will never eat the toxic stuff as long as they have good things to eat. My sprayer is about a 50 gallon unit I bought from TS. You could pull it behind a 4 wheeler as long as you can hook the electrical for the pump to the battery. On my tractor, I simply take off a side engine panel and run the wiring to the battery. The wire is designed for this with break-away plugs and quick-connects on the battery end.
I use whatever water-soluble broad-leaf weed killer my Co Op carries. Currently it's an off-brand amine of some kind. Mixing instructions are included on the package, you may have to practice your spray rate with the speed of your 4 wheeler. With the tractor, 15 rpms is the sweet spot according to how I have the jets set. I go slower on areas with more weeds, and faster on areas with fewer (or just switch the pump off from my seat) You get these calibrations using just water in the tank and practicing how long it takes to use X number of gallons in X distance. It's easier to figure than it may sound.
Just walked a recently sprayed paddock with my morning tea in hand, checking on die off, and I'm pleased with my mix and speed. The amine gets the Autumn Olive, burdock, plantains, garlic mustard... My favorite plan - and I watch the weather closely - is to spray, and have rain 24 hours later. Always spray on a calm day. And you'll NEVER get them all!

[fergusnc]

Thanks Tarlo! So I read that some weeds the horses won't touch while growing can become palatable as they die off after being sprayed....for how long do you keep the horses off a sprayed pasture? Is it just a matter of the next rain, or until the dying weeds reach a certain stage?

[kande50]

Thanks Tarlo! So I read that some weeds the horses won't touch while growing can become palatable as they die off after being sprayed....for how long do you keep the horses off a sprayed pasture? Is it just a matter of the next rain, or until the dying weeds reach a certain stage?

I did read that weeds sprayed with Roundup will sometimes become more palatable, but haven't heard of any mass livestock poisonings from eating sprayed weeds so maybe they only eat a few, or the Roundup isn't toxic to mammals, or it's broken down to something that isn't toxic by the time the weeds become more palatable?

I spot spray broadleaf and mostly keep them off it until the next rain,but because I spot spray I don't worry about it as much as I would if I'd sprayed all the grass, too.

I've used different broadleaf sprays and they all come with an instruction booklet that goes into how long livestock should be kept off sprayed pastures, along with everything else you need to know about that particular chemical.

[kande50]

Forgot to mention, last year I wiped out the curly dock in the hay field by going around with a bag of high nitrogen fertilizer and throwing piles of it on each plant. Burned the little suckers to a crisp I did, and the added bonus was that the grass that was left around the fertilizer spots grew really well.

I didn't use the fertilizer to "spot burn" the weeds in the pastures because I didn't want to have to take the horses off them for that long (probably 2 weeks would be prudent), but I also didn't have much curly dock in the pastures so just dug up what little was there.

[Tarlo Farm]

I like to wait a week, but it really does depend on how much rain we get. With my paddocks it takes a week to get around to the one I've sprayed anyway.

[Woost2]

Google corn gluten meal pre-emergent. I have no idea if it is used where animals will graze but it is the thing for natural lawn care. Replaces 'weed and feed.'

[Woost2]

Google corn gluten meal pre-emergent. I have no idea if it is used where animals will graze but it is the thing for natural lawn care. Replaces 'weed and feed.' Here's one: http://www.gardensalive.com/product/cor ... our_garden

[Chisamba]

Corn gluten meal has zero effect on runners, or weeds that spread with roots not seeds. Just FYI.

I mostly control weeds by mowing before they seed. I am sure I would spray the plantains. If you wish to use a pre emergent, are you planning for next year, since most have already emerged?

[fergusnc]

If you wish to use a pre emergent, are you planning for next year, since most have already emerged?

Yes Chisamba. The more I read about spraying, even the things marketed towards grazing animals, I get nervous about all the precautions and risks noted to humans, so question the animals' ability to eat off the area safely. Plus I am convinced I will mess up and kill everything good as well. Our Guy metioned granular pre emergent for next year, which would at least take away the fear of the liquid for me. Even with the liming and fertilizing and mowing and rotation, I guess I just don't want to let things get worse somehow...especially in my barnyard which is a bit of a sacrifice pasture.

[kande50]

[quote="fergusnc"]Plus I am convinced I will mess up and kill everything good as well.

If you kill everything you can always reseed with exactly what you want.

One of the reasons I spot spray instead of just spraying the whole field is because I don't want to wipe out the clover and alfalfa. The other is that I don't want to spray the grasses that the horses will be eating.

[fergusnc]

If you kill everything you can always reseed with exactly what you want. .

Excellent point!