Why Aren't You (g) In A Regular Lesson Program?

[musical comedy]

Subject is self explanatory.

Reading Piedmont's thread about JJ Tate riding several horses in the CDK clinic brought this to mind. Even the best riders work with clinicians. Even Olympians have a trainer or someone knowledgable looking at them frequently. Why then, do people that are much less accomplished, even in a lot of cases novice, continue to ride with only the rare lesson? I'm all for experimenting and not needing to have a trainer oversee my every move, but it's just common sense that most of us need regular training if we are going to improve, or at least not fall into bad habits. It becomes even more important if we aren't riding a trained schoolmaster and trying to train or improve a horse ourselves.

I can answer for myself, as I am not taking lessons anymore. That is because I and my horse are semi-retired. Before, I had lessons at least 3x a week and for a couple years was in full training.

[exvet]

My 'dressage pony' to be is only 3 and I'm getting him backed/started (doing it myself). I do not need a trainer or lessons for that. I had to retire the stinker pony due to a pasture injury. The mustang I ride 3x's a week to keep him in a program (of my own design and sweat equity); but, his sole purpose in life is to be a trail horse. He does that job extremely well. Another area where I don't need lessons. Once JR turns 4 and is solid walk-trot-canter, I'll go back to weekly lessons and perhaps a schooling show or two. At this time lessons would truly be waste of money for me. If there was someone close by that had a schoolmaster I could take lessons on at the FEI levels I'd re-consider but that does not exist in my area.

[Tsavo]

I agree with the gist of your post, MC. I have always been in regular lessons until a few years. My mistake was thinking the lessons were enough. They were not as I have come to learn.

I moved to my trainer's barn for 3 months last summer for more intense training. These days I work with any decent trainer who comes to my barn.

[Abby Kogler]

I can imagine that for many if not most people the primary factors would be financial, and location. Lessons with a reputable trainer are not cheap. And for many, access to someone who can actually help them may not be possible.

[musical comedy]

I can imagine that for many if not most people the primary factors would be financial, and location. Lessons with a reputable trainer are not cheap. And for many, access to someone who can actually help them may not be possible.

In my thinking, buying a horse without the money for training and vet care is ridiculous. Both are part of the package. Like buying a car and needing gasoline.

[DJR]

For me, the first 2-3 years after I moved to my acreage I rode without a regular trainer. It was a simple matter of not knowing the local community and not knowing who I'd want as a coach. I needed that time to get my feet wet (i.e., get myself back into riding) and to suss out the community and what was available re: quality dressage instruction. I did go to clinics about 1-2 times a year during that time, mostly to try out a new instructor and to get feelers from others in the community.

Then I finally found my current instructor after I volunteered to scribe at a local dressage show. She was the judge and I found out that the next day she was teaching at a clinic at the same location as the show. I really, really liked what she had to say when I was scribing for her, and then was able to ride with her the next day in a cancellation spot. Loved it, and am still with her now over 3 yrs later.

She lives 4 hrs away so I only get to ride with her in a 2-day clinic about once a month (occasionally more often if my work schedule allows me to ride with her on a Wednesday when she is teaching just 1 hr from me), but she is such an effective instructor that I find I can easily take home what we have worked on and manage well between lessons.

[StraightForward]

I can imagine that for many if not most people the primary factors would be financial, and location. Lessons with a reputable trainer are not cheap. And for many, access to someone who can actually help them may not be possible.

This for me right now, although I've never managed to be in a regular program.

I did not plan to have a horse in full training with a cowboy for >1 year to make her rideable. If that hadn't happened, I could have afforded to go into half training when I felt my horse and I were ready for it. I certainly cant afford much training on my rideable horse after paying for that, but don't feel that I'm so inept that I should just not ride in the meantime. The person I was working with monthly hasn't really made it to the valley at all this summer. I just found someone else who is coming every two weeks. We did our first lesson, then Annabelle had her accident, so it will probably be September before we do another one. I'm hoping this bi-weekly lesson situation will hold out for at least a year or so, which would be a record for me.

The options for good trainers around here are quite slim, and Boise is isolated, so it's not like we can just trailer an hour or two and find better training. Honestly though, I was brought up with a DIY spirit and enjoy working on my own, reading, contemplating and trying to solve training issues. I might do the half training thing once I have a horse on the 2nd/3rd level trajectory, but I'm afraid I might find it kind of smothering. I think weekly lessons would be just about right once I have a horse going on a 5x a week program (Annabelle is at 3x a week currently).

[Josette]

I was working with a trainer when I got my pony and she helped me immensely with restarting him. Past instructors, I was not impressed with some lessons and looking back they were under qualified and wasted money. My current instructor helped me turn the corner in improving myself - although I have not had lessons within the past year. Life issues got in the way but we are hooking up again to get a schedule back. I will say that I will flatly refuse to ride with any trainer who I do not agree with their training methods. I don't care if they are a BNT or have huge show records and high scores. How a horse is trained and handled with care and respect is critical for me.

[piedmontfields]

I have spent a lot of years in a regular lessons (but never full training). The last 8 months are the first I've had without regular lessons in a long time. Frankly, I think I needed that time away in order to reassess my/my horse's progress. I would like to be in a program (but am picky about trainers); I've learned that I do well with about 2 lessons a month. I'm sure I would progress with 3 lessons a week but I'm not sure I'd enjoy it as much. I need some time on my own to process, do the homework and get to a different stage. I learn a lot from occasional clinics but it is not the same thing as regular eyes on the ground. Where I live, the best bet for getting to someone of the quality I'd like is to haul once a month. I don't currently have a trailer---in part because I really don't have the time for that (it's not a short haul).

At the Charles de Kunffy clinic, he emphasized how important it is to work with someone on the ground to help you/horse progress. JJ works regularly not only with Charles but also with Michael Klimke, Scott Hassler and others for example.

[Abby Kogler]

I can imagine that for many if not most people the primary factors would be financial, and location. Lessons with a reputable trainer are not cheap. And for many, access to someone who can actually help them may not be possible.

In my thinking, buying a horse without the money for training and vet care is ridiculous. Both are part of the package. Like buying a car and needing gasoline.

Unfortunately, I don't think this view is universal.

[kande50]

[In my thinking, buying a horse without the money for training and vet care is ridiculous. Both are part of the package. Like buying a car and needing gasoline.

If one buys a horse and never uses it to compete they may not need either a trainer, nor much vet care, as most can manage to put in enough gas.

[musical comedy]

Unfortunately, I don't think this view is universal.

Clearly, as I see numerous times over on the COTH forum. People buying inexpensive (problem) horses because that is all they can afford and then later coming back whining for help about how to fix the problems. All the time saying they can't afford a trainer or there isn't one and they can't see if the problem is soundness related because they can't afford a vet. This isn't just a few people, but many. Newbies buying OTTB's. The list goes on. One could say "why do you care; none of your business". This is true, but it just irks me for whatever reason. Besides, chat boards are open to discuss all peeves.

If one buys a horse and never uses it to compete they may not need either a trainer, nor much vet care, as most can manage to put in enough gas.

You have this odd belief that if a person doesn't compete that a horse will stay sounder. A horse ridden for any reason deserves to be ridden correctly and kindly. Furthermore, I believe there are a lot more unsound horses sitting in non-competing backyards then there are in fancy show stables. It's just that some of those backyarders aren't aware of it. Besides, I maybe should have prefaced my thread by saying that I am talking about people that have a goal to proceed up the dressage training scale, whether they show or not. That is most people on Dressage Forums. The chances of taking a horse up through Collection without a trainer is possible, but odds are stacked against you (unless you're already accomplished and experienced in doing that, such as Exvet).

[khall]

Well, my trainer Mark Russell was killed June 2016 in a riding accident. I am still trying to find someone to work with consistently. I do like riding with Jillian Kreinbring, but am not able to ride with her more than 3 times a year so far. I rode with Mark 4-5 times a year and really that was enough for me. I would ride 6-8 times during a 4 day clinic 3 Xs a year and then go to his place or to another clinic site with at least one horse and ride with him sometimes twice daily over 3 days.

Having had health issues with my gelding this spring, finding another instructor to work with was not high on the priority list. Hoping to look into getting one to host here on my farm for 2018. The only time I rode weekly with someone was when I was a working student for a year plus long before I got married. I also spent a week in Spain this spring riding several times a day that week on schooled horses.

[Kyra's Mom]

Well...way back when, I was able to lesson weekly. In the middle, I relied on every other month clinics with 2-3 lessons per clinic. Later..like ten years ago, I did a lesson every other week. I think I would gag if I had to take lessons more often than that. I can't process things that fast. I have had good instruction which has been systematic and builds on the lesson before so I want time to work it out, practice and get proficient at whatever we worked on. I have had a friend that has been eyes on the ground a day or two between lessons that has a good eye for correctness which certainly helps. No way I want an instructor talking me through every freaking step. I have never wanted to be in full training. I like my horses to be all rounders and have time to do something else...for both our sanity. Mind you I never have had big competition aspirations. Local shows are plenty.

Like straightforward, Boise isn't a hot bed of dressage. Good instruction can be found but sometimes, lesson frequency depends on the instructor, not the student.

Currently, I am not riding at all. Riding for the last 2 years has been quite limited due to my physical issues. Right now I am thoroughly tied up in elder care and just became the executor of my uncle's estate. Riding? A dream for now. Hopefully I can get back to it soon but it will quite some time before I am fit enough for lessons, if that day comes at all.

Susan

[demi]

I'm 64 and both of my horses have issues that could get me hurt if I'm not very careful. I need a special teacher. If I could ride with Charles once a week, I would! I would ride with Galopp once a week if I could. But there are not in my neighborhood. I need a trainer that I can put complete trust in. One that truly understands horses and that is usually someone with a LOT of experience.

I found a trainer, Reinhardt Dorsch (google this old guy, he is special) two hours from me in San Antonio that I would LOVE to ride with once a week on either of my mares. I cliniced with him on Rocky when she was 4-5 yrs old and I trusted him completely after the first 15 minutes of my first ride. That's what I need at this point in my life. Complete trust in my trainer. Someone who can read my horse and read me. Unfortunately, the only place I could ride with him has no covered arena and scary bad footing in the outdoor,plus a bunch of other things that made it simply not feasible. I made the trip 3 times and then sadly decided I would just have to ride on my own. That was a hard pill to swallow.

I have slowed down a lot in the last few years, but I am still in the game. With the Texas climate and a couple of high strung mares, I can no longer ride any old time..."when" I ride depends on a number of variables that are out of my control. My "schedule" is no longer is such that I can fit into the schedule of the average trainer.

I am hoping for the Soloshot 3 as a way to start working with a trainer again.

[Rosie B]

I have worked primarily on my own since starting Bliss as a 3 yo. I can count on one hand the number of dressage lessons I have had with him. I got some help from a primarily western trainer along the way, but came to the realization (slowly) that she wasn't able to help with the dressage all that much. I would be much further ahead if I had consistent help, that is for sure.

When I was riding Prussia (the bay mare I rode weekly from 2005-2009, and then leased from 2009-2012), I had lessons from two different but wonderful clinicians about 8-10 times a year. That worked really well for me, and it was easy because the clinicians came to the barn where she lived.

Now I have Bliss at home, and I don't have a trailer, so I am somewhat limited in where I can go. If I can get 3-5 clinics in per year at this point, that puts me much further ahead than no lessons at all. So that's what I'm currently aiming for. I have two clinics planned in Sept and Oct with the two clinicians I used to ride Prussia with. It will be my first lessons with these people with Bliss, so I really hope everything works out.

[Tsavo]

I have worked primarily on my own since starting Bliss as a 3 yo. I can count on one hand the number of dressage lessons I have had with him. I got some help from a primarily western trainer along the way, but came to the realization (slowly) that she wasn't able to help with the dressage all that much. I would be much further ahead if I had consistent help, that is for sure.

When I was riding Prussia (the bay mare I rode weekly from 2005-2009, and then leased from 2009-2012), I had lessons from two different but wonderful clinicians about 8-10 times a year. That worked really well for me, and it was easy because the clinicians came to the barn where she lived.

Now I have Bliss at home, and I don't have a trailer, so I am somewhat limited in where I can go. If I can get 3-5 clinics in per year at this point, that puts me much further ahead than no lessons at all. So that's what I'm currently aiming for. I have two clinics planned in Sept and Oct with the two clinicians I used to ride Prussia with. It will be my first lessons with these people with Bliss, so I really hope everything works out.

Kudos to you! I agree with MC that the second photo looks pretty perfect and you seem to be doing correct work.

[kande50]

Besides, I maybe should have prefaced my thread by saying that I am talking about people that have a goal to proceed up the dressage training scale, whether they show or not. That is most people on Dressage Forums.

That's different then, because I do think that those whose primary goal is to proceed up the dressage training scale are a different subset than those who own horses and are interested in learning about dressage.

And yes, probably most who are on dressage forums are interested in progressing up through the levels, or were at one time, or plan to at some point in the future. But that doesn't mean that everyone who participates on a dressage forum has the primary goal of competing at the Olympics!

For example, even though some have the resources available to jump right in and buy a horse that's already trained (or multiple horses that are already trained), get a trainer to ride their horses, take lessons, and progress up through the levels, not everyone chooses to do that. Some actually figure out early on that what they really want to do, and then do it (and then regret that they wasted all that time in lessons that were actually interfering rather than helping them achieve their goals)!

[Chisamba]

It's a trust thing I believe. We all of us have different viewpoints, from opposite ends of the spectrum, ranging perhaps from Kande (ride for fun no pressure), to MC, riding us not fun and every ride is a test.

Finding an instuctor that you can trust implicitly is quite difficult.

Okay I will admit to personally finding it difficult to trust. Even from riders who are more successful and ride more successfully than I do.

I find it difficult to explain so I use taking directions to explain.

If you call someone and say I am lost help me get to A... They have to both know where you are, what direction you are facing, and what vehicle you have...

So I go to a lesson, instead of understanding where I am they want me to go back to their starting place and go a different way.

Or I go to a lesson and they completely misunderstood my vehicle.... Not a warmblood and not a gelding (for example)

Then when you do find some one they are not local and cannot help as often as I need.

So I have video taken and I self correct, and of course just do not progress quickly and perhaps it is also because I am now more interested in the journey than the destination.

A clear change of personal ambition

[kande50]

Finding an instuctor that you can trust implicitly is quite difficult.

And especially when they're messing with a project that one has already spent a considerable amount of time on, and may be screwing it up because they're completely unaware that their student's priorities are not the same as theirs.

I suspect that instructors' thoughts are along the lines of, "well, why is she here if she doesn't want to learn what I teach", while the student is thinking, "this is nothing like what I thought she was describing".

[Tsavo]

So I have video taken and I self correct, and of course just do not progress quickly and perhaps it is also because I am now more interested in the journey than the destination.

A clear change of personal ambition

This resonated with me because I am coming around to this point of view.

I will retire my horse in a few years and will buy one more horse. I have been planning on getting an FEI schoolmaster but I know that if I go that route, I can't stay at my trainerless barn and must move to my trainer's barn for lessons and tune-ups. While that is doable I am not sure it is what I really want any more.

I am very happy riding my guy. I can produce the right feel in the reins and that's what gets me out of bed early morning 5 days a week to ride... that savory, savory handshake of contact. That and riding outside the arena but still doing dressage. I am thinking I could be happy with a third level horse confirmed in the changes. There is enough in everything up to third that I would have enough to work on and if we can advance further then that is fine.

That is my new plan.

[Sue B]

Well gee MC, maybe it's because not everyone lives in dressage world like you do. SF and Kyrasmom both report Boise is becoming a "dressage desert", but try living where I do! Out here in spud country I have access to a grand total of 2 instructors. One instructor spends the whole time complaining about how hard her life is, never corrects any position faults and rides too much front-to-back imho. The other instructor was my coach for a number of years way back when I was a teenager, is a very good horsewomen and is even USDF certified. She has a good eye too, but sometimes I have to push her to make me ride more effectively. I used to drive up to her place (and she'd come down on occasion) a few times a year. but she is 100 miles away on rural roads (so 2hr drive one way) and is usually on the road on weekends. So in order for me to get coaching, I have to miss work and get there and back before my son gets out of school. Oh yeah, and there's the cost--not just for the lesson but for the gas too--such that a single session runs me in excess of 120.00. Nonetheless, I still am planning to haul both ponies up sometime in September so that Tio can have some off-farm experience and so that I can work on flying changes with Rudy. We used to have much more teaching opportunities but dressage has fizzled out around here I guess. So, for now, I rely on help from my vet husband, the occasional video session from ds, and the very kind people on this board. Perhaps if I lived in New Jersey, I would find other lame excuses for not getting more help from the ground. I do agree, that eyes on the ground are really important to developing a high level, well trained rider and horse. It simply isn't possible for me, in my world, at this time.

[piedmontfields]

"Dressage desert"---yes, that rings true! Maybe sometime I'll get to live back in a dressage-rich area. Until then, I'm living with our incremental progress and focused on the journey.

For those of us juggling careers/family/elders/etc., it really is a big deal to travel a good distance for training.

[Ponichiwa]

I'm not in a regular program now, and haven't been for at least 6 years. I've had some decent success despite that streak-- some competitive rides at the local and regional level, although definitely not national-quality, and have consistently moved my horses up the levels.

When I was living in the Pittsburgh area I took monthly or bimonthly clinics with the same trainer and felt that was extremely helpful. I moved away last summer and because of various things (time, equine injuries, job stress) I haven't sought out lessons with any sort of consistency. I do ask for eyes-on-the-ground feedback from friends/family when available, and that's been extremely helpful.

I do think that Kiwi and I have made progress in the last 12 months. I don't doubt that we could be even further with consistent instruction, but that's life. You can only put so much stress on the system.

[Moutaineer]

You Idahodians have lost several good trainers in the last year or so, which is a blow. We used to think you had it so much better than us. There's a young woman from round here who has just married and moved to Idaho--Christy Erickson Peavey--who I would recommend highly to you for lessons if she hangs out her shingle in your area.

When I have a fit and sound horse, I try to stay in a lesson program. However, it's hit and miss on the quality of trainer around here. too. I've had some real flakes in the past. Showing up really is the first requirement. Knowing more than I do is the second requirement! Neither of these should be particularly difficult to fulfil. When you struggle to find it, or find yourself embroiled in politics for just taking lessons, you tend to keep your money and work away on your own.

Current one is pretty good, and hungry, so she doesn't flake out on lessons. She knows her theory and has been a great help to me--she is also a good horsewoman. However, she requires a considerable amount of fortitude to deal with outside the lesson environment.

Her trainer comes to us occasionally also, which is useful.

The other one I would be interested in taking lessons with is based about 2 hours south of me. As I work full time, it's just not happening.

[musical comedy]

Ernst Hermann is In Idaho. Is he anywhere near you Moutaineer? Maybe he is not considered good anymore; dunno.

[Imperini]

I think about it a lot but it's mostly a time thing for me. During the winter I was taking regular lessons on weekends but throughout the summer they've been more sporadic because of time. Coaches are at shows during the weekend and I don't normally get to the barn on weekdays until around 7:30pm. I'd have a hard time asking someone who has probably worked throughout the day to come give a lesson when their day should be over. If I could make it out during the week a bit earlier in the day I'd definitely be having regular lessons. I've been thinking about going even further and going into a training program but it's just not feasible at this time because you can probably guess.. time and distance.

[StraightForward]

Ernst Hermann is In Idaho. Is he anywhere near you Moutaineer? Maybe he is not considered good anymore; dunno.

He is retiring.

[ASBJumper]

Buying a horse without money for vet care? Yes, irresponsible. Because the horse WILL actually suffer (i.e. not having teeth floated, pain from illness/unsoundness not being treated, etc.)

Buying a horse without the $$ for training/lessons? Not REMOTELY in the same ballpark. The horse will not care if it's being moved up the levels or not. And not taking lessons does not automatically equal bouncing around like a ragdoll and reefing on the horse's mouth. That's ridiculous.

I cannot afford regular lessons. I spend my $$ on health care and a good, safe place to board, top quality feed and chiro/massage as and if needed. My horse's well-being, happiness and health are my top priorities. After my family, that is: I have a husband and a daughter and I can no longer afford lessons, clinics and shows on a regular basis. I get them when I can, and if I don't for a while my horse(s) most certainly do not "suffer" for it. They just don't progress - which they couldn't care less about.

What an incredibly snotty and elitist thing to say, "people shouldn't own a horse if they can't afford training". Jeez.

I am actually in between horses at the moment (leased out my ex-Dressage mare and am in the process of purchasing a long yearling), but I just felt compelled to respond to this because a couple of the responses offended me quite a bit and I felt bad for all the ladies out there doing their best in the middle of nowhere with limited to no access to good coaching/facilities.. they don't deserve to be told they shouldn't own a horse and attempt Dressage with it. Seriously. Dressage is for everyone.

Sorry, off my soapbox.

[Moutaineer]

MC, I'm in Utah--about a 7 hour drive to populated Southern Idaho.

[Chisamba]

Buying a horse without money for vet care? Yes, irresponsible. Because the horse WILL actually suffer (i.e. not having teeth floated, pain from illness/unsoundness not being treated, etc.)

Buying a horse without the $$ for training/lessons? Not REMOTELY in the same ballpark.
I get them when I can, and if I don't for a while my horse(s) most certainly do not "suffer" for it. They just don't progress - which they couldn't care less about.

What an incredibly snotty and elitist thing to say, "people shouldn't own a horse if they can't afford training". J.

Well this resonates with me although I'm not sure anyone said that people should not own a horse if they cannot afford training, did they? I missed that quote, that is pretty snotty.

People should be careful not to dangerously over horse the self, but that is also different.

[Ponichiwa]

Horses can suffer for lack of training. I've seen enough real nice, cute young horses become unhappy/jaded 8-14yo horses after a couple years of the wrong type of ride to believe that.

We do have a responsibility to our horses to keep them healthy and well-adjusted to norms of modern horsekeeping (i.e. please for the love of all that is holy, halter-break your horses before they're 8 years old!). That doesn't mean that everyone needs to be in the $2500/month program, or schooling all the GP, or whatever. But I honestly believe that we owe it to our horses to get the training we need to give them the training they need to give them the best shot of being a long-lived domestic equine in 2017.

[Josette]

Well I've known several lower level riders who paid between $25K - 45K for WBs that were NOT school masters. They believed they were effective experienced enough riders to train these younger athletic type horses themselves. They did not have the budget to work with a competent trainer on a regular basis. A few were very lucky not to get seriously hurt when some situations blew up on them. Sometimes a person really wants to move up to a fancy horse and gets in way over their head. I certainly learned a lesson watching these dramas unfold. I call this a reality check.

[Chisamba]

Well who says a horse trail ridden every weekend is not happier than a dressage horse in a regular lesson program?

They usually have more turn out, free choice shelter and laid back attitudes with relaxed gaits. Often hacked over varied paths on a loose rein, they look a whole lot happier than most in training dressage horses at a show.

Thinking a dressage horse in training is automatically better off is another supremely elitist bit off self delusion.

Now, halter training, having them safe for vet, farrier and dentist, being responsible to handling and care, these things I totally agree are a basic responsibility of horse ownership.

The rest is all debatable.

I repeat, over horsing oneself is never a good idea.

[musical comedy]

Well who says a horse trail ridden every weekend is not happier than a dressage horse in a regular lesson program?

Nobody said that either. I actually think a trail horse or pleasure horse lives a better life than a show horse, assuming that he is ridden decently and wearing proper tack and not through dangerous footing.

My thread was about riders. Riders wanting to ride dressage. Riders wanting to progress, and not being able to because they don't take lessons.

Again I'll say that a lot of people are experienced enough that they can work alone for a while (even a long while) without regressing and maybe will even progress.

Chisamba, take for example those 4h students you teach. If let alone without instruction, how would that go?

[ASBJumper]

In my thinking, buying a horse without the money for training and vet care is ridiculous. Both are part of the package.

I stand by what I said. MC - you can backpedal and sugarcoat all you want. You essentially said people shouldn't buy a horse if they don't have the money for training. Period.

You asked why people aren't in a "regular lesson program", someone immediately responded "because.. money", and you're like "well that's ridiculous".

It's right there, in plain sight.

[musical comedy]

In my thinking, buying a horse without the money for training and vet care is ridiculous. Both are part of the package.

I stand by what I said. MC - you can backpedal and sugarcoat all you want. You essentially said people shouldn't buy a horse if they don't have the money for training. Period.

Ok, I'll own it. I sugarcoat nothing, ever. So that is what I think, snotty or not. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks of me or what I say.

[Tsavo]

I will venture into this issue. There are two lives, the rider's and the horse's. They each have a right to a good life.

I think there is a minimum amount of skill that a rider must have so that the rider's enjoyment does not impinge on the horse's. It is largely self regulating in my circles though i know it is out of control in other circles. This minimum is pretty low and I can only think of a few people who do not meet it and who I have bitten my tongue over not suggesting they need lessons for their horse's sake. Frankly, for these people, riding does not look fun. Thus is seems that nobody's happiness is being maximized. I don't understand the vacation trail riding industry at all. Riding is not fun if you don't know how to do it. It just perplexes me how people don't mind getting their lumbars jackhammered.

I think people who top out at first or even training level probably meet the bare minimum such that their horse's don't dread being ridden. That is most dressage enthusiasts.

I have also seen elite horses being ridden by elite riders who appear to dread being ridden. Someone has forgotten that there are two lives involved.

[Flight]

I probably have a lesson once a fortnight on average, and that's from someone 10 mins drive away. I sometimes have 2 a fortnight? But it's work/time dependent and I'm the type that needs to go away and work through things myself. I get a bit angsty if I can't get it right when I'm in front of someone.

Interesting discussion though! I didn't appreciate that people were living too far from good trainers to get instruction.

I don't think people are wrong not to get training, that's their choice. I think they are wrong when they keep doing competitions then bitch about how awful the judge was and don't try and figure out why they score poorly, or blame their horse, the weather, another rider....

[kande50]

I have also seen elite horses being ridden by elite riders who appear to dread being ridden. Someone has forgotten that there are two lives involved.

And IMO, there's the problem right there: trying to get way too much out of the horse before one has the skills to do so without abusing him.

I don't believe that it's a skill level problem though, because even beginners can ride without making a horse miserable as long as they're aware of what likely makes horses miserable, or have an instructor who knows, cares, and makes sure that the horse is protected.

I think many now accept the theory that horses instinctively try to mask pain to improve their chances of survival, but even though we've been aware of that for a long time now, people still refuse to acknowledge that they may very well be hurting their horses every time they ride them. And I think at least one of the reasons for that is because too many are still stuck on what humans believed about horses in the past, and refuse to consider that we now know more, and that their own beliefs are antiquated.

[tlkidding]

I think this proposal that unless you are in a regular program, it's detrimental to your horse is quite simplistic and somewhat insulting.

We've shown I1 and are now schooling GP and once my horse was started at 4 years old, we've never been in a "regular program." A trainer has gotten on and schooled my horse once in 10 years.

We have a few local dressage trainers but nobody I'm eager to work with, so I've done mostly clinic type situations that can range from 2x per month for a few months to once every 2-3 months. I'm not some great rider with super talent (and neither is my horse) and didn't have any experience past 2nd level before my current horse.

I think for most AAs to progress they either devote time or money. If you have the money, go ahead and get yourself in a program with a trainer. If you don't have the money, you need time to put into the riding, reading, watching, etc. If an AA doesn't have much of either, then the time just get stretched out longer - which is no big deal as long as the AA is enjoying their horse and the horse is healthy and happy. Even if the riding the AA does is not "good," as long as it's not damaging the horse, who cares. The horse gets 23 hours of the day to be happy and just has to putter around for an hour with a rider.

[ASBJumper]

In my thinking, buying a horse without the money for training and vet care is ridiculous. Both are part of the package.

[/quote]

Ok, I'll own it. So that is what I think, snotty or not. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks of me or what I say.

PS - I have never, ever, referred to myself as a "trainer". Ever. I would never accept money to train a horse, and I start my own simply because I cannot afford a full-time trainer and because I was fed up with getting hurt by other people's "made" horses. I do my best with what I have, and take lessons/do clinics when I have the means.

[piedmontfields]

I think for most AAs to progress they either devote time or money. If you have the money, go ahead and get yourself in a program with a trainer. If you don't have the money, you need time to put into the riding, reading, watching, etc. If an AA doesn't have much of either, then the time just get stretched out longer - which is no big deal as long as the AA is enjoying their horse and the horse is healthy and happy.

I completely agree. And your achievements are inspiring! I do think many folks forget that there is a study and reflection/analysis aspect to training + learning, too---in addition to a serious amount of time and work.

I'll add that if you have *both* time and money, that is a real opportunity for steady progress. I believe de Kunffy said, it only takes 4 years, 11 hours a day to become a real rider (and that was assuming an excellent setting for learning)

[Moutaineer]

Knock it off, ladies. Chancellor has enough on her plate without having to deal with you engaging in public brawl.

[Chisamba]

ASB, I do not think using quotation marks for something that is not a quote is fair. I think we should actually quote, we have the facility to do so.

MC, it's usually counter productive to rise to the bait.

Ok, I'll own it. I sugarcoat nothing, ever. So that is what I think, snotty or not. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks of me or what I say.

I do care what people say and I do care that what I say is if critical, at least helpful and not simply mean. I am honestly about to cancel my reservations in the Jeremy Steinberg clinic because I have no desire to open myself to the kind of acid reflected here even though this salvo is not aimed directly at me. Why would I put myself I the position to be watched and judged similarly.


.

[ASBJumper]

Chis - I honestly don't know what you mean, everything I put in quotes in my most recent posts, was a direct quote. I still think you missed MC's original comment. It was the 5th post in the thread.

Anyhow, I now clearly understand why this thread was started by MC in the first place. I've said my piece. Ciao bellas!

[Sue B]

Chisamba, I would hope you would not deprive yourself of the opportunity to ride in a Jeremy Steinberg clinic simply because of what some anonymous (or otherwise) railbird might say. Either assume everyone thinks well of you or shut your mind off to what you think others are saying. Most people are good-hearted, Jeremy is a good instructor, relax and go for it!!!!! Life is way too short to run away from such a wonderful opportunity.

For the rest of you, simply ignore the negativity that popped up here. Remember we are all cyber friends (or at least I like to think we are), we are all entitled to our own opinions, and we are all responsible for our own happiness.

I for one, find it interesting to read why folks do and do not take lessons or coaching regularly. When I read that some people drive hours several times a month, I think "Gee, maybe I should do that"; then again, no one important to me cares what this 56 year old chick does with her ponies so I admit my ambition level has dropped while I help my ds achieve some of his goals. It's all good so long as we are content within ourselves. Honestly, though, if I had the opportunity to lesson from Jeremy, I'd jump on it in a heart beat! Lol

PS In case you guys have forgotten, I "walked the walk", I don't just "talk the talk." I rode in the Adult Series with HG, had the privilege of having my horse and I completely denigrated the first lesson and then partially redeemed the second lesson. Nonetheless, I took home some valuable insights and I hope others in the audience who ride non-warmbloods did too. If I had to do it all over again I would, without hesitation.

[Flight]

Tlkidding and RosieB - interesting that you both don't have regular lessons yet obviously doing so well! RosieB - you video and analyse that quite regularly? Tlkidding, do you do similar or have mirrors to assist with your training? Pretty cool that you are training GP, I love hearing of AAs getting up to that level.

[piedmontfields]

For the rest of you, simply ignore the negativity that popped up here. Remember we are all cyber friends (or at least I like to think we are), we are all entitled to our own opinions, and we are all responsible for our own happiness.

That is absolutely how I see it. To me, it is no coincidence that a group has migrated to and enjoyed this space. Many of us are weeks or months between clinics or trainers and the group is a fabulous support/listening + analysis board.

I admit that while I am fairly straightforward or even blunt in person, both on-line and in the flesh I aim to be kind and genuinely helpful (over being right or smarter than or more able than).

[demi]

For the rest of you, simply ignore the negativity that popped up here. Remember we are all cyber friends (or at least I like to think we are), we are all entitled to our own opinions, and we are all responsible for our own happiness.

That is absolutely how I see it. To me, it is no coincidence that a group has migrated to and enjoyed this space. Many of us are weeks or months between clinics or trainers and the group is a fabulous support/listening + analysis board.

...

agree to both. Especially that this particular group is "no coincidence" and a "fabulous support/listening + analysis board". The marvels of modern communication!