Would you compare yourself to a dressage master?

[Chancellor]

I've followed several threads over on COTH about this guy who I would prefer to leave nameless. He has been banned on there for profanity and threats. The other day, I went to his blog for some unknown reason.
There he was posting pictures of himself and Nuno Oliveira saying that he looked and rode almost exactly like him.

Please if you know who I am talking about, don't post his name here.

But, it got me thinking. I would NEVER deign to compare my riding to a dressage master. Would you?

[Abby Kogler]

Yes! I am the Living Embodiment of Every Gifted Rider EVER. I teach like Xenophon, I ride like Gal, I communicate psychically like LTJ, and I am as pretty as Melania.

Actually, no. But in a world where people identify as different colors, genders, and species (not that there is anything wrong with that) I guess we cant expect anything different in the horse world.

>;->

[Chancellor]

Maybe not even a dressage master...would you compare yourself to any great doing anything? In my daily life, I am a software developer. I am constantly surprised at how great my husband is. He can look at something and solve it as if by magic. I aspire to be as good as he is someday.

Do you think Charlotte DuJardin looks at Carl Hester or Nuno Oliveria or Klimke and thinks she is right up there with them or does she "aspire" also?

These are truly the questions I think about and what my original post was about. If it was about the man himself, I would have posted his name which I did not.

[Angfreda]

The guy is nuts.

Many who know little get fooled into thinking they know enough or much... and then they learn more and realize they will never know enough.
I'm not sure I ever thought I was 'good' or good enough.
I know that I've come a looooong way, baby.
I know that there are some who would blow smoke [the lady I was WS for who said I was a 2nd level rider to my face, and denigrated me to others behind my back] in order to.... ?? I guess make sure I kept coming back? Not sure. It's not like I believed her or even let her think I believed her] in order to keep people on the hook? To then elevate themselves relatively to where they try to convince you that you are?

**I feel badly, very badly, for his mare.

[Angfreda]

Thinking about it, I'm pretty much the opposite of the guy you reference, polar opposite... I never think I am good enough... and I sure don't need people pointing out my flaws to see them, glaringly, myself!

When you understand all the minute details that go into a well trained horse, a quality ride... how can you ever think you've mastered it?
It can not be mastered. Not by any names you throw around, no matter how well known.

[musical comedy]

I never think I am good enough... and I sure don't need people pointing out my flaws to see them, glaringly, myself!

Me too. I'm extremely hard on myself. I've been hard on others with my comments, but not nearly as hard as I am on myself. I make the mistake of thinking that people want to hear what's wrong, but people want it sugar coated. It results in many not progressing because of it.

[Chancellor]

Thinking about it, I'm pretty much the opposite of the guy you reference, polar opposite... I never think I am good enough... and I sure don't need people pointing out my flaws to see them, glaringly, myself!

When you understand all the minute details that go into a well trained horse, a quality ride... how can you ever think you've mastered it?
It can not be mastered. Not by any names you throw around, no matter how well known.

I wonder how it must feel to feel like you are one of the greats and not keep thinking I need to improve this and this and this.

[Angfreda]

Thinking about it, I'm pretty much the opposite of the guy you reference, polar opposite... I never think I am good enough... and I sure don't need people pointing out my flaws to see them, glaringly, myself!

When you understand all the minute details that go into a well trained horse, a quality ride... how can you ever think you've mastered it?
It can not be mastered. Not by any names you throw around, no matter how well known.

I wonder how it must feel to feel like you are one of the greats and not keep thinking I need to improve this and this and this.

I would think it would be boring. But what do I know? [ba-dum bum, *rimshot*]

[Angfreda]

I never think I am good enough... and I sure don't need people pointing out my flaws to see them, glaringly, myself!

Me too. I'm extremely hard on myself. I've been hard on others with my comments, but not nearly as hard as I am on myself. I make the mistake of thinking that people want to hear what's wrong, but people want it sugar coated. It results in many not progressing because of it.

Interesting.
The lady I was a WS for was notorious for being knowledgeable... then saying the exact opposite of what she said previously.... and doing what is very clearly NOT smart to do without having to say it.

She was all a-fluster before her lesson one day, her knee blocks were in the wrong place, "WHY did You move them!!! I've never moved these!!!" she dithered.
Um, I moved them when you took them off and handed them to me because they were moldy and you wanted me to clean them and let them sit in the sun to de-mold. But yeah.... blame me.


In the course of the 8 months I worked for her, her own horse knocked her down how many times? After she told me how he can swing that giant head of his around and whomp you good?! Did he ever get me? You better believe he didn't! I only had to see it happen to her once to 'get it'. All the other times I guess just reinforced it. While telling me a whole lot more about her.
He was known to fall asleep on the X ties and then kick out when he was startled into waking up.
She told me this.
How many times after that telling did he kick [at] her? Did she become more aware of his falling asleep on the X ties and that he would maybe kick... and maybe stay away from the rear end and be more observant of if/when he went to sleep?

I could fill a series of books. I probably should.

Point being... Sometimes people may be VERY aware of what is 'wrong'... but it's not wrong when they do it, or they don't see that they are doing what they told you not to do... or that they previously declared was dangerous/stupid/illegal/fattening.

[Ponichiwa]

Do you think Charlotte DuJardin looks at Carl Hester or Nuno Oliveria or Klimke and thinks she is right up there with them or does she "aspire" also?

She may. Maybe she is? Not everyone thinks Hester, Oliveria, and Klimke are the best there is.

FWIW, I didn't read MC's reply as snarky.

My confidence in my abilities seems to decrease with age. When I was in college, I was pretty sure I was all that and a bag of chips. Could ride anything, could train anything, could show anything. I didn't ever get to the point where I thought I was the second coming of an ODG but I was very confident in my abilities.

Now that I'm older, and more aware of my own limitations, I have the opposite issue. I found myself wondering if I even know how to ride the other day when I was struggling with a training issue. The pendulum has swung a bit too far to the opposite side. I'll find an equilibrium someday.

I spent many years in the music world. Every band and orchestra had that one player (sometimes more) who was convinced he/she was headed to Julliard to become the next trombone/trumpet/violin/[the list goes on] virtuoso by age 23. To my knowledge, none have-- yet. Maybe they'll make it by 35.

[Chancellor]

Do you think Charlotte DuJardin looks at Carl Hester or Nuno Oliveria or Klimke and thinks she is right up there with them or does she "aspire" also?

She may. Maybe she is? Not everyone thinks Hester, Oliveria, and Klimke are the best there is.

FWIW, I didn't read MC's reply as snarky.

My confidence in my abilities seems to decrease with age. When I was in college, I was pretty sure I was all that and a bag of chips. Could ride anything, could train anything, could show anything. I didn't ever get to the point where I thought I was the second coming of an ODG but I was very confident in my abilities.

Now that I'm older, and more aware of my own limitations, I have the opposite issue. I found myself wondering if I even know how to ride the other day when I was struggling with a training issue. The pendulum has swung a bit too far to the opposite side. I'll find an equilibrium someday.

I spent many years in the music world. Every band and orchestra had that one player (sometimes more) who was convinced he/she was headed to Julliard to become the next trombone/trumpet/violin/[the list goes on] virtuoso by age 23. To my knowledge, none have-- yet. Maybe they'll make it by 35.

When I stopped riding a few years ago, I was thinking the same thing. What happened to all the confidence I felt so many years ago? Moose taught me that my balance wasn't as great as it used to be. And also taught me that damn gravity is a b*&ch.

[M&M]

When we had our restaurant, DH never thought he was good enough. John Lennon said a similar thing as what my husband says. (Not that I think DH is the John Lennon of the cooking world, but he is damned good.) But no matter how good the audience thinks it is, what they imagine in their head was a little bit different, a little bit better. So no, they never felt like they had succeeded to the point of not having to keep aspiring.

[Flight]

I think there is something wrong with the person you are talking about in the first post. Sometimes I admire confidence, and I know a few males that have an ego that makes them sure they can do things. But he is beyond that and very strange.

Anyway, I feel the more I know the less I know, and the less I'm likely to want to advise anyone on what to do. I'm hard on myself too and annoy my friends with it, but to improve you have to be fairly critical (MC - Im one that appreciates your non-sugar coated opinions! Please say what you need to for any of my pics/vids!)

There are a lot of horse trainers that train horses full time, I think you need to do this and train many horses to come close to being a master. Yet there is really only a few names that are considered true masters.

[Literiding]

I think the word that Chancellor is looking for is "narcissistic:"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

[Chisamba]

not everyone needs to be a master, if you are kind, in your training, have reached an upper level enough times to feel that you kind of know the way, and better enough than your students to serve then well, and if are able to tell a student when they have surpassed your skills and would do better moving on, there is a lot of room for those skills.

However it is a life work to masters ones own weaknesses and develop strengths. As we age we actually have to metamorphasize, we have less physical skill, and greater experience, so we have to begin to negotiate with wisdom rather than confidence.

Does one need a healthy dose of confidence, yes, i think so, but one also really really needs, in my opinion, a healthy dose of humility. I think it takes humility to continue to learn, it takes humility to have an open mind too. So perhaps if one thinks they are a master, they have stopped learning? this is a genuine question, i do not see how one can continue to learn without the two seeds, humility and an open mind.

[redsoxluvr]

Absolutely not. After 20 plus years of consistent training, I am realizing how little I actually know every day.

[kande50]

Now that I'm older, and more aware of my own limitations, I have the opposite issue. I found myself wondering if I even know how to ride the other day when I was struggling with a training issue. The pendulum has swung a bit too far to the opposite side. I'll find an equilibrium someday.

I think the self-assessment thing was more of a daily/weekly/monthly roller coaster for me, which I eventually realized was linked to how tired I was and what my hormones were doing that day. Once I realized how important perspective was to how I felt about anything, it became much easier to develop an "it is what it is" attitude about all of it.

I also think that the attitude people project about themselves and their abilities is often very, very different from how they really feel.

[Chancellor]

When we had our restaurant, DH never thought he was good enough. John Lennon said a similar thing as what my husband says. (Not that I think DH is the John Lennon of the cooking world, but he is damned good.) But now matter how good the audience thinks it is, what they imagine in their head was a little bit different, a little bit better. So no, they never felt like they had succeeded to the point of not having to keep aspiring.

Well, I would certainly think your DH is the John Lennon of cooking!

[Bip]

I wonder how it must feel to feel like you are one of the greats and not keep thinking I need to improve this and this and this.

Well, the guy that got you wondering about this is textbook for Narcissistic Personality Disorder of the overt variety (there's a covert variety too), so if that is the case for him, he feels scared and inadequate and his disorder compels him to constantly try to cover it up with bluster to keep from being discovered. Any acknowledgement of room for improvement feels like revealing a deep flaw that causes the whole facade to crumble, which is why they lash out so violently.

... And you might have noticed that our current president is the same way, which is pretty dangerous for our country.

[Beorn]

It's an interesting thing to think about, from the npd on one end and something like imposter syndrome on the other. While I think it's common (among women) to lean towards humility, in reality I don't see it rewarded in my daily life compared to people with blithe confidence in themselves, even if it's terribly misplaced.

[Cookie]

I am a dressage master, to whom all compare themselves. Therefore, I don't need to compare myself to any others.

Thing is, most people who have any sense know that the greats don't toot their own horns, and usually you need some sense of humility to get places in life. I don't know this guy, but seems he doesn't get it.

[kande50]

Thing is, most people who have any sense know that the greats don't toot their own horns, and usually you need some sense of humility to get places in life. I don't know this guy, but seems he doesn't get it.

The way someone explained it to me is that there was a time in her life when she was completely unable to admit that she had certain flaws, because she needed to believe that she didn't have them. Or at least she needed to believe that others didn't know she had them.

Tooting one's own horn can be a similar strategy that isn't necessarily about expecting others to believe the narrative, but is instead way more about covering up what one doesn't want anyone else to know.

[scruffy the cat]

I don't know about Charlotte Dujardin but one of my riding instructors worked for Bruce Davidson for years. A favorite anecdote of hers is how Bruce would come back from some ride or other and say, "Guess what? I learned the coolest new thing today!" Even after all his medals, he didn't think he was done learning.

[Chisamba]

It's an interesting thing to think about, from the npd on one end and something like imposter syndrome on the other. While I think it's common (among women) to lean towards humility, in reality I don't see it rewarded in my daily life compared to people with blithe confidence in themselves, even if it's terribly misplaced.

Once, decades ago, I was hired to be the horse master in a period TV film. I provided horses that kind of made the actors look like they could ride.

Long story short one actor saud to me, you are good at this, and I started with humility. He chewed me out. He said if you are good at something don't be afraid to say it, don't have any faith in people ability to notice.... But once you say it, you need to actually be good.

I'm not sure it comes easily to women.

[kande50]

[
Long story short one actor saud to me, you are good at this, and I started with humility. He chewed me out. He said if you are good at something don't be afraid to say it, don't have any faith in people ability to notice.... But once you say it, you need to actually be good.

It sometimes takes people awhile to learn to just say "thank you" when someone pays them a compliment. I think the reason "thank you" works is because it doesn't come across as self-depreciating, nor does it sound too arrogant. I think of it as thanking the person for trying to be positive even if I am just a bit cynical about it.

I do enjoy watching charmers at work though, because they can be so shameless.

I once read that the most popular kids in school tend to be the least honest, although I'd be more likely to say that the most popular kids (and adults) are those who are the most comfortable with telling people what they want to hear.

But to bring it back to the topic of this thread, I guess some people could be considered the opposite of charmers?

[Angfreda]

It's an interesting thing to think about, from the npd on one end and something like imposter syndrome on the other. While I think it's common (among women) to lean towards humility, in reality I don't see it rewarded in my daily life compared to people with blithe confidence in themselves, even if it's terribly misplaced.

Once, decades ago, I was hired to be the horse master in a period TV film. I provided horses that kind of made the actors look like they could ride.

Long story short one actor saud to me, you are good at this, and I started with humility. He chewed me out. He said if you are good at something don't be afraid to say it, don't have any faith in people ability to notice.... But once you say it, you need to actually be good.

I'm not sure it comes easily to women.

When I had my son and he was so small some marveled, some of them mothers, at my ease with him.
Some express intrigue at my vision with furniture and upcycling, suggesting they would never 'see' the end result in the beginning materials.

Both of those come easy to me. I didn't work at them like I have other things [riding, for example, believe it or not]
To me, those compliments- for that which I didn't study and practice- are hard to understand.
My counselor suggested to me, and I still have to remind myself of it, that just because I find it easy doesn't mean it is easy, or that it is not noteworthy.

[Angfreda]

Thing is, most people who have any sense know that the greats don't toot their own horns, and usually you need some sense of humility to get places in life. I don't know this guy, but seems he doesn't get it.

The way someone explained it to me is that there was a time in her life when she was completely unable to admit that she had certain flaws, because she needed to believe that she didn't have them. Or at least she needed to believe that others didn't know she had them.

Tooting one's own horn can be a similar strategy that isn't necessarily about expecting others to believe the narrative, but is instead way more about covering up what one doesn't want anyone else to know.

That can be true.

But also, in Recovery there is the idea of 'Fake it 'til you make it' also.
If I imagine myself as capable, competent... good at ____, I might someday realize capability, competence or being good at ____.
I know there have been many times I've 'pretended' to be *something*.... because inside I doubt myself. And I have been rewarded with better than otherwise expected results through that.

I am a person who doesn't toot her horn. Ever.
It has not served me well. One who is unnoticed does not get rewarded.
Not for good work, not for sacrifice, not for loyalty. Not for obvious attributes or actions that one would have to be blind to miss.
I walked away from my WS position broke, and broken. Without a thank you. Without the loyalty I showed that BO/trainer and her boarders returned.
I know the horses appreciated the months I stepped up and cared for them. I'm equally knowledgeable that people I thought of as family aren't and only wanted me to think I was part of the family as a means to their own ends.

I'm not sure how to take a few steps in the direction of 'tooting' without it being too uncomfortable or unattractive.

[kande50]

I'm not sure how to take a few steps in the direction of 'tooting' without it being too uncomfortable or unattractive.

I think the most effective ways may be the tried and true ones? Become involved in activities offered by organizations that are in the business of ranking participants (hopefully as fairly as possible), and just pay the money and get the measurements that can help establish that one is good at that particular activity.

IOW, degrees, trophies, certificates, rankings; we just need to choose something that we think we might be good at and work at it, and while we're busy striving we'll likely find ourselves gaining confidence.

I used to think that pieces of paper weren't worth much, but now I think that their worth isn't so much to show others that we "won", but to convince ourselves that we can "win".

[Angfreda]

I'm not sure how to take a few steps in the direction of 'tooting' without it being too uncomfortable or unattractive.

I think the most effective ways may be the tried and true ones? Become involved in activities offered by organizations that are in the business of ranking participants (hopefully as fairly as possible), and just pay the money and get the measurements that can help establish that one is good at that particular activity.

IOW, degrees, trophies, certificates, rankings; we just need to choose something that we think we might be good at and work at it, and while we're busy striving we'll likely find ourselves gaining confidence.

I used to think that pieces of paper weren't worth much, but now I think that their worth isn't so much to show others that we "won", but to convince ourselves that we can "win".

Good ideas. I guess the things I do now though, there are no awards, certifications or other concrete recognitions for.
I did attempt to verify the worthy-ness of my furniture via sales... and then they slumped.
I would love to go back to school, but the expense doesn't justify the return once completed.
I have a letter from the state Vet saying that I did a great job with our mandated QT.... *sigh*

[kande50]

I have a letter from the state Vet saying that I did a great job with our mandated QT.... *sigh*

And that's just the sort of recognition that eventually adds up to more self confidence. Lots of struggle, some recognition, and knowing that you're doing the best you can with what you have to work with. As one of my friends is always saying, "Put your helmet on, your head down, and keep on going".