Positional challenges and projects

[piedmontfields]

On the monthly thread, there were a few references that made me think this might be a good topic to pull out in its own thread.

As part of my effort to ride more quietly, I'm trying to pay strict attention to any time my elbows or hands move outside their appropriate "zone"! It is very easy for me to address connection inconsistency if I keep my "buddha torso" and use my seat/legs. My hands can stay very quiet when I do that. At some point I learned that when I saw crookedness or holding in the horse's neck, go to the hind leg (aka use my leg). So I'm trying to teach myself similarly that when I see that the connection is inconsistent, go to the buddha torso/integrated seat! Other tips are welcome.

I'm also trying to improve how well I can drop my outside leg/heel. I'm much better about this in trot than canter, but I know it tightens my seat (which tightens Miss Mare's back) when I don't release the outside leg fully down.

I welcome hearing your tips, challenges and projects.

[Dresseur]

My shoulders are ALWAYS a challenge for me. I tend to want to let them hunch just a bit, which makes me less effective. Also, my left leg wants to turn out a bit, I've been working on making sure that my hip is rotated correctly so that the flat of my thigh lays on the saddle - which in turn keeps my left foot pointing straight ahead as it should.

[piedmontfields]

Oh yeah, I always need to address my shoulders--especially when I ride after work. The method that works for me is to float the heart up and open. If I make the shoulder blades go down more in an assertive action, I tend to get more tense.

[Moutaineer]

What to me is so interesting about position is how fixing one thing that one might think is relatively trivial fixes so many other things.

For instance, the piano hands thing many of us have struggled with. Solving that can't be done independently of solving the bend in your elbow and the angle your arm hangs from your shoulder, which triggers the stabilization of your core through your Latisimus Dorsi (SP) muscles.

So, sit up straight, turn your thumbs up and out, and feel what happens to the rest of your body.

(And, the perfectly balanced saddle makes everything so much easier. Slightly out of balance and my knees will creep up, which immediately makes my shoulders roll forward.)

One of the benefits of all the rebab walking under saddle I have been doing for the past couple of months has been the opportunity to think about these things and fiddle around with them (every cloud has a silver lining!) And now we starting to trot. I don't have anything to do except think about myself. But by shaping myself, we all know what happens to the horse!

[StraightForward]

I'm also trying to improve how well I can drop my outside leg/heel. I'm much better about this in trot than canter, but I know it tightens my seat (which tightens Miss Mare's back) when I don't release the outside leg fully down.

This for me. I feel like I need to bring the leg up to apply it on a smaller barreled horse relative to my leg, but guess what? They can still feel it even if my entire leg isn't on the barrel. I was caught doing this badly in my last lesson and when I fixed it, suddenly the leg yield worked!

I was also caught dropping my right shoulder, so I'm trying to remember to re-check that throughout each ride.

[piedmontfields]

This for me. I feel like I need to bring the leg up to apply it on a smaller barreled horse relative to my leg, but guess what? They can still feel it even if my entire leg isn't on the barrel. I was caught doing this badly in my last lesson and when I fixed it, suddenly the leg yield worked!

You are so right! If I keep my outside leg correct, my seat and sitbones are correct and that is the main message line that says "continue in canter, please"!! I am better about this in lateral work, but probably because it is mostly at trot ...

[piedmontfields]

This for me. I feel like I need to bring the leg up to apply it on a smaller barreled horse relative to my leg, but guess what? They can still feel it even if my entire leg isn't on the barrel. I was caught doing this badly in my last lesson and when I fixed it, suddenly the leg yield worked!

You are so right! If I keep my outside leg correct, my seat and sitbones are correct and that is the main message line that says "continue in canter, please"!! I am better about this in lateral work, but probably because it is mostly at trot ...

[heddylamar]

I’ve found that strengthening and correcting weaknesses elsewhere — not in the saddle — directly impacts my riding.

For instance, adjusting the ingrained habits of how I sit (primarily Indian style .. legs crossed one direction) and stand (left hip was always cocked) to more evenly distribute my weight fixed an ongoing riding habit where I wasn’t putting equal weight in the left and right stirrups. All of a sudden I was sitting square in the saddle again. Unfortunately my achy left hip isn’t a fan of being an equal participant

Now I just need to re-conquer the wandering left hand!

[Linden16]

On the monthly thread, there were a few references that made me think this might be a good topic to pull out in its own thread.

As part of my effort to ride more quietly, I'm trying to pay strict attention to any time my elbows or hands move outside their appropriate "zone"! It is very easy for me to address connection inconsistency if I keep my "buddha torso" and use my seat/legs. My hands can stay very quiet when I do that. At some point I learned that when I saw crookedness or holding in the horse's neck, go to the hind leg (aka use my leg). So I'm trying to teach myself similarly that when I see that the connection is inconsistent, go to the buddha torso/integrated seat! Other tips are welcome.

I'm also trying to improve how well I can drop my outside leg/heel. I'm much better about this in trot than canter, but I know it tightens my seat (which tightens Miss Mare's back) when I don't release the outside leg fully down.

I welcome hearing your tips, challenges and projects.

I feel like you might have better luck maintaining a consistent contact/arm position if you focus less on WHERE your hands are, and more on HOW they feel. Steady connection and effortless position come from positive tension in the reins maintained by an elastic elbow, relaxed shoulders, and an independent seat. The more you concentrate on WHERE your elbows/wrists are the more you will drown out the feeling of the individual components of your contact. try closing your eyes and riding for 2 minutes while videoing yourself (set your phone on the ledge, or have a friend video.) I guarantee you your contact and position will improve dramatically when your eyes are closed vs when they are open.

[Tsavo]

I will mention what I have tried in response to these various issues...

As part of my effort to ride more quietly, I'm trying to pay strict attention to any time my elbows or hands move outside their appropriate "zone"! It is very easy for me to address connection inconsistency if I keep my "buddha torso" and use my seat/legs. My hands can stay very quiet when I do that. At some point I learned that when I saw crookedness or holding in the horse's neck, go to the hind leg (aka use my leg). So I'm trying to teach myself similarly that when I see that the connection is inconsistent, go to the buddha torso/integrated seat! Other tips are welcome.

My hands unconsciously go wide in response to my horse not being straight. They come together and actually touch without me thinking about it when my horse is straight. Maybe your hands are also a barometer of your horse's straightness and are just the symptom and not a problem? If you are truly doing Buddha seat then your hands are independent to be barometers on straightness which I think is what is happening to you.

In re connection, two things help me... taking no prisoners on the leg to hand response* and riding shoulderfore at all times so that there is more "value" in the outside rein. I saw someone use that word in DT and I thought it was pure genius. It is impossible to overstate the effectiveness of inside-outside SF and that is why Isabel Werth repeats this one million times in her clinics.

* Only works if you extinguish any backward aspect of the hand.

I'm also trying to improve how well I can drop my outside leg/heel. I'm much better about this in trot than canter, but I know it tightens my seat (which tightens Miss Mare's back) when I don't release the outside leg fully down.

This sounds to me like it might actually be a collapsing at the waist to the inside rather than a problem with your hip angle but I really can't say. If your hip is tight then it is a hip angle problem. If it isn't then it might be a waist collapse on the opposite side problem.

I try to ride canter legs away to enforce the focus on my seat which is the controller of the amount of collection. That said, I will suggest leg to keep the jump in collection. Gal appears to ride legs away the entire time LOL.

(And, the perfectly balanced saddle makes everything so much easier.

Completely agree. It is easy to show.

I’ve found that strengthening and correcting weaknesses elsewhere — not in the saddle — directly impacts my riding.

Completely agree but once you get good enough, you don't need too much fitness (think old expert riders who don't work out but still outride everyone). I am still at a point where I definitely benefit from my gym work and probably always will be.

Now I just need to re-conquer the wandering left hand!

You might consider this is your body unconsciously trying to compensate for a crookedness in your horse. As my horse slowly became unstraightenable from an orthopedic issue, I slowly started dropping my left hand. Never did it before his issue and it took a few years after my horse recovered to stop doing it because it became ingrained.

[heddylamar]

Now I just need to re-conquer the wandering left hand!

You might consider this is your body unconsciously trying to compensate for a crookedness in your horse.

It’s not at all fair to blame the 4yo when I’ve spent decades compensating for a bad left hip and left shoulder, across many horses by doing weird crooked stuff with both that leg and hand.

But, yes, once I’m straight, she may not be. I’ll deal with that then

[Tsavo]

Well I admit I didn't consider whether you had injuries. That matters.

[piedmontfields]

I feel like you might have better luck maintaining a consistent contact/arm position if you focus less on WHERE your hands are, and more on HOW they feel.

I do agree, given that is how I've managed to learn anything in riding/equitation! The feeling I am trying to reproduce consistently when riding with both hands is the feeling I have when I bridge the reins and ride with one hand (where I'm clearly quieter and my mare loves it). My current process goes something like warm up with one hand, transition to two and try to keep the feeling/connection, notice it could be better (mare is inconsistent and hands are "doing" things that are bigger than movement inside my glove), then return to one hand and repeat.

[piedmontfields]

Thanks all again for ideas. I'm using them and it is helpful. Riding without stirrups in my warm-up is also helping, as it helps me open up the more challenged hip. I think the main thing is to just make sure I'm going to the seat/position first and not to any extra hand action, as she is so quick to give me a nice response in the connection that way.

I'm also thinking about how when a horse is stronger on one leg, we have to be careful to match movements to the weaker leg, or else the movement will be less fluid and/or crooked (this is most vivid to me in passage or piaffe). There is a way a which I think we humans have to do this, too---to make ourselves balanced within the ranges of our two sides.

I'm finally out of my wrist splint and can actually vault off when I dismount (instead of crawling off and using Emi's hip to help me get my body around).

[demi]

I'm finally out of my wrist splint and can actually vault off when I dismount (instead of crawling off and using Emi's hip to help me get my body around).

Vault off?!? Sorry, but I'm going to have to request that your Sr. thread membership be revoked I dismount like a proper Sr. by leaning forward so I can slide my right leg over till I am laying across the horse, and then carefully and slowly let myself slide down.

[piedmontfields]

Vault off?!? Sorry, but I'm going to have to request that your Sr. thread membership be revoked I dismount like a proper Sr. by leaning forward so I can slide my right leg over till I am laying across the horse, and then carefully and slowly let myself slide down.

But do you drag your right leg over your horse's butt and then shove the horse's hipbone with your foot to get your foot around? (Not that I would judge you if you did!! But that was what I was doing....The first time, Emi was like ??!!, but she quickly came to accept the butt shove!).

[demi]

I drag but don't shove. haha. Both Rocky and Emma are used to it and I think they understand...at least they are both very patient for my creaky mounting and dismounting.

[Ponichiwa]

Vault off?!? Sorry, but I'm going to have to request that your Sr. thread membership be revoked I dismount like a proper Sr. by leaning forward so I can slide my right leg over till I am laying across the horse, and then carefully and slowly let myself slide down.

But do you drag your right leg over your horse's butt and then shove the horse's hipbone with your foot to get your foot around? (Not that I would judge you if you did!! But that was what I was doing....The first time, Emi was like ??!!, but she quickly came to accept the butt shove!).

I tried that with Kiwi once (clumsy accident). Was almost forcibly reintroduced to the ground. Her Highness does not appreciate those sorts of shenanigans.

[Ryeissa]

I move my leg around the front of the saddle, not the back. Much easier!

[piedmontfields]

Well, after PT today (hard work), I was back to the drag and shove

Rye, are you serious about swinging your outside leg forward?! That is way too scary to me! Ponichiwa, I was glad that Emi did not leave abruptly the first time I did this.

But on the position subject, I did a bit of inward leg circles at canter (which really releases my hips) and got some super mediums.

[Imperini]

But on the position subject, I did a bit of inward leg circles at canter (which really releases my hips) and got some super mediums.

Sorry if I've missed this and it's already out here somewhere but can you describe what you mean by inward leg circles? My hips are very tight so would be interested in anything that might help release them a bit.

[piedmontfields]

Inward leg circles:

At the walk (initially) without stirrups (or with) allow both legs to move out away from the horse, forward and then circle back to the horse's side. Your legs will move like mirrors to each other. This helps me lengthen my inner thigh, drop my knee, widen my sit bones and release my hips into a comfortable toes forward position.

You can do this a few times in a row, or just once and then observe the effect on you/horse. Repeat as desired. During a warm-up, I'll often do them every 5-10 strides, just to help me let go.

I avoid legs circles in the other direction, as it tends to pinch my sit bones together and make my leg more toe out.

[Imperini]

Thanks much piedmontfields I suspect I'll have issues getting my legs out away from the horse but I'll give it a try for sure.

[piedmontfields]

Be curious how it goes for you, Imperini. You can also practice these moves off the horse--like on a tall stool (sitting), or even on your back with your legs in the air.

[Ryeissa]

yes, I dismount by putting my leg around the front of the saddle.

I keep a good bend in my knee, so it's a very contained movement. I draw my knee up high and pivot around my saddle- i'm not throwing my leg over the head

my horses never cared, or noticed. I thought it was easier/safer than balancing awkwardly on the back of the saddle to get off.

[piedmontfields]

yes, I dismount by putting my leg around the front of the saddle.
... I thought it was easier/safer than balancing awkwardly on the back of the saddle to get off.

Definitely not safer, as it puts one in a more difficult position if the horse moves, etc. I'm not sure what you mean by balancing on the back of the saddle--I swing my outside leg over the horse's rump (now that I am better and able to do so!).

[heddylamar]

Finally! I'm sitting square in the saddle again, using both left aids correctly, and my left hand has quit wandering. The proof: we're picking up the right lead (challenging side for both of us) on the first attempt nearly every single time now.

[piedmontfields]

That is an awesome update heddylamar!

I am keeping up with my inward leg circles at all gaits and the mare says "yes, you need to do this for me to let go and M O V E!"

p.s. gotta love mares

[StraightForward]

Well, I bought a new, used saddle that needed reflocking so Annabelle and I headed over to a local saddler who did her tracings and pointed out that she is quite asymmetrical and needs a shim on the left side. The saddle is still there being worked on, and I'll go back over and have her help me dial in the shim situation, but in the meantime I've added about 1cm of foam on the left side and magically, my position is better, even in my non-preferred saddle.

Observations I've made lately: as much as I hate them, I've been doing overhead squats for a couple years now, and even with light weight, just focusing on strict form, they have really improved my core stability. Adding in a deadlift corrective exercise and hip stretches has me a lot more automatically upright in the saddle. Though I've been doing both of these exercises 1-2x a week for a couple years, I didn't really realize the benefits until adding in regular Bosu ball work and standing on a Fluidstance board at work. The balance seemed to be the missing link in pulling it together. I think the next thing to focus on will be more equal hip mobility. My left hip is a little stiffer, but can swing back, whereas my right hip has more mobility, except in the backward direction, so I tend to stiffen and pull that leg up rather than keeping it stretched down as it comes back.

[Tsavo]

[...] My left hip is a little stiffer, but can swing back, whereas my right hip has more mobility, except in the backward direction, so I tend to stiffen and pull that leg up rather than keeping it stretched down as it comes back.

One thing that my personal trainer emphasizes in all the exercises we do is to take out any momentum. That mainly translates to moving slow enough, holding at the extension point, and fighting gravity at all times. I don't think we do any "swinging" at all in any exercise or stretch position.

This translates directly to riding where you can't use momentum to bring your thigh back but instead need muscle and flexibility to achieve it.

I eventually worked my way up to >180 degrees in both hip stretches and it took well over a year. But now I can easily move my thigh back from strength and now how to have it at any position.

Just mentioning that.

[StraightForward]

[...] My left hip is a little stiffer, but can swing back, whereas my right hip has more mobility, except in the backward direction, so I tend to stiffen and pull that leg up rather than keeping it stretched down as it comes back.

One thing that my personal trainer emphasizes in all the exercises we do is to take out any momentum. That mainly translates to moving slow enough, holding at the extension point, and fighting gravity at all times. I don't think we do any "swinging" at all in any exercise or stretch position.

This translates directly to riding where you can't use momentum to bring your thigh back but instead need muscle and flexibility to achieve it.

I eventually worked my way up to >180 degrees in both hip stretches and it took well over a year. But now I can easily move my thigh back from strength and now how to have it at any position.

Just mentioning that.

Yes, good distinction. I don't really try to swing my leg back, but do static stretches trying to pull the leg back from a neutral pelvis. I think of it as swinging back when in the saddle but it's really sliding back using muscles within the range of flexibility.

[Chisamba]

Since I broke my lower spine in a fall and have a permanent six degree offset in the pelvis, my right hip and thigh cannot flex as well as the left.

I ride with a slightly shorter stirrup and fortunately this us sufficient to maintain a balanced position in the saddle.

My suggestion for tight hips is one hole shorter stirrup.

[Ryeissa]

.

[piedmontfields]

Good for you, Ryeissa, if it works and your horse cooperates. But please know that this is not safer and you should not assume such.