Improving the Canter Seat

[Chisamba]

Chisamba,

p.s. Cool saddle pad!

I bought it at a clinic. Then put it in storage and lost it . Then my friend who shares the.licker brought it so I played matchy matchy and made Mikhail photo me lol

[khall]

chisamba I like the first and third picture. The first may not be the best for a horse that is not strong enough, but for a strong fit horse being erect like this pic to me is correct. The 3rd pic is just very fluid very horse friendly. The 2nd to me looks like backwards riding with elbows to me look holding.

With Rip I do more of the first and only when he is not feeling froggy will I move to the 3rd. I have to feel he will stay with me before I lighten my seat.
I actually stretch my outside leg back and down at the first footfall of the stride to help ground the outside hind for collection (on appropriate horses) and stretch up holding with my front/shoulders erect.

demi to me in this pic the up beat is on the downswing, moving from first footfall to second diagonal pair. It is as the horse engages the outside hind in the air as the horse begins the upswing in the canter stride, as the outside hind grounds (which is the collecting leg) the horse is elevated in the front but as it moves to the diagonal pair the horse loses that uphill motion in the canter stride.

[demi]

....

demi to me in this pic the up beat is on the downswing, moving from first footfall to second diagonal pair. It is as the horse engages the outside hind in the air as the horse begins the upswing in the canter stride, as the outside hind grounds (which is the collecting leg) the horse is elevated in the front but as it moves to the diagonal pair the horse loses that uphill motion in the canter stride...

I don’t get it. I may never be able to do tempi changes.....

[Ryeissa]

My very naive and humble opinion is that the first picture is the wrong canter stride try to compare to the other two. So it's kind of hard to gauge quality of movement when they're two different stages of the same gait?????

Good thread!!!!! Very interesting.

[piedmontfields]

I think of canter strides as starting with 1. outside hind 2. inside hind and outside front 3. inside front (this is the "down beat" to me, where one's hip opens the most) and 4. moment of suspension.

I feel the most closing of the hip joint at #2. This is where I think of the thrust of canter living (please correct me folks if I'm wrong!)

Most of us avoid taking or sharing photos of #3, the inside front/down beat moment, because it doesn't look as good as #2. Demi, I would say your photo is after #1 and before #2 occurs.

[khall]

This slow mo video might help. Shows clearly when the horse is on the last beat (leading leg) of the canter is when the rider's seat is the most open. Seat closes on the up swing of the stride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81u5lIp6sTA

For me, when asking for more collection, the open and closing of the seat is lessened because we hold our seat against the horse a bit to encourage engagement and collection. i.e. compression of the outside collecting leg, can only be influenced for engagement when grounded Yet we must keep the energy up with asking for activity of the hind legs (calves for me, active seat if needed)

[kande50]

I don’t get it. I may never be able to do tempi changes.....

I don't think you have to be able to describe it to be able to feel when you need to ask for the change, although that does sound like a fun project. I wonder if sustainable dressage has any info on it?

Or, it would probably be fairly easy to videotape your trainer and slow it down and then be able to see what exactly she was doing when.

[demi]

Thanks for that vid, khall. I need to watch it about a thousand times.

Kande, i agree one may not need to be able to describe what one feels, but I want to be able to describe it so I can understand it. Otherwise it will be hard to improve...i dont know.

[Dresseur]

I'm about 2 weeks into this canter seat re-tooling effort. The first week and a half, I was on my own, practicing on Miro. We shortened my stirrups a 1/2 hole so that I could feel my stirrup a bit more in an effort to stop the floating lower leg, and I had to keep thinking 1. get him in front of me - which meant using my leg more and 2. lean back. I wasn't sure how things were going, so I was pretty excited when Andrea said that she had time to work on this all on Gala last Sunday.

The take away is that things are definitely improving. Focusing on using my legs more and not just relying on my back is helping to get and keep horses in front of me so that I don't lean forward and get my butt pinged out of the saddle. We practiced a number of transitions where I focused on keeping my lower abs firm so that I wouldn't let my pelvis rock back in the moment of transition - they all felt lovely compared to my usual. Andrea felt that for the first time, I looked like I was sitting in the horse and directing rather than kind of sitting on top of the horse.

We then worked on the working pirouette because in Andrea's words, "while I can create a pirouette that would score big in the show ring, it's not correct because you have no control over it and can't push it out. It's a terminal canter even though the hind is very active." The object was to keep the haunches in, collect the canter without slowing it and then push it out into almost a medium canter - all while keeping the shape and bend of the haunches in. I realized very quickly that Gala was quitting on me because I couldn't push the canter out - so we worked on how I should be doing that (swing my seat a bit more, support with leg as needed.) When those were feeling good, we went to the changes.

For the changes, the object was to keep my seat down in the saddle and ride the collection up - she thinks I'm still subtly slowing it down. I had some really nice, big expressive changes where I was able to fix mistakes within the canter and get the change any way - any misses were into the lesser count. Meaning, If I was doing 3's I'd miss to 2's and if I was doing 2's, I'd miss with a few ones rather than getting all twisted and not getting changes. So, that felt like a success. She still felt that I was doing the change and then collapsing, so she put me on her newly minted I1 horse who requires a lot of power in the canter and balancing after the change to do tempis. The last time I was on her, I kept getting late changes or no changes - so to be able to not miss a single change was a huge difference. I realized very quickly how I just let things go after the completed change when she dove down in her shoulders and took off (not really, but that's what it felt like lol). A few admonishments to go right back to my collected canter after the change and we had that sorted. This horse is one that if you have the canter or trot not right - she feels like she's in the lists charging angrily at other horses - it's gets really stompy up front - so we worked through how to smooth that out in the canter and the trot while still maintaining the power that I needed. It was a very, very cool experience to go from stompy to smooth.

Yesterday, I rode M after a few days off (he seems to do best with 2 or 3 days on and 2 days off). The canter felt phenomenal and I was able to carry the idea of change the canter in the working piri through to him, which felt great. We also worked on putting the canter on the spot making sure that his hind legs kept up the same rhythm in prep for the changes and because I wasn't leaning forward and letting him ping his croup up, we had really nice moments there where he almost changed a few times. So, I'm excited about that. Overall... I feel like progress is being made.

[Ryeissa]

awesome report! that sounds all very exciting

[piedmontfields]

Well, my updates are much more modest. But we are continuing to have improvement. I'm able to get that "perpetual canter" feeling quite quickly on both leads now. My leg is staying much longer and softer in the canter, thanks to more opening of my hips. And I'm finding it much easier to go in and out of collected canter without energy losses. Counter canter work is getting down right easy (ex. cc 20 m circles or through short end of arena doesn't take much extra concentration at all).

I still find that we have a "hiccup" going from working canter to medium canter. Still trying to figure that out, but then moving bigger is always more of a challenge for my little mare. Occasionally I feel how this could be when we have an energizing moment in the fields (surprise appearances by deer, etc.) and Em takes a few bolting canter strides! lol I can use that energy to make her canter get some real ground cover.

[Ryeissa]

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[piedmontfields]

Another note I forgot to include: It is now equally easy to yield left or right rein (or both reins) and maintain the same canter. It used to be easy for us on one rein, but not the other.

[Moutaineer]

Our canter work is still on the eternal quest for straightness.

Whilst it has improved dramatically with my gaining more control over my body--(I'm tall, long in the torso and not naturally very coordinated, so I can make a big negative difference to the balance of a horse very easily,) I'm now far more able to sit straight and square and influence him more effectively, but there's still room for improvement. He tends to want to cant his hind end inwards in the depart, and then it's hard to get things straightened out again.

(This isn't all down to me. It's kind of how I ended up with him, as he apparently couldn't/wouldn't canter on his left lead for his previous owner and would just throw his haunches in and ignore the aid completely. God only knows how they managed to create that monster. I suspect you really can do too much lateral work if you do it badly.)

So the depart, and our mutual positioning in it, is really the key for us.

We'd been playing with doing a few strides of renvers prior to the depart, but while it appeared to show a straighter depart, it was basically a fake and wasn't really solving the underlying problem, so in my lesson on Saturday we went back to more of a shoulder fore position and that felt better, so that's our homework for the week.

I also feel that activity in the canter is very important in assisting straightness. It's far harder to spraddle around all over the place if your legs aren't trailing out behind you and you are collected and moving forward and up into the bridle.

[piedmontfields]

Mountaineer, I hear you on the canter straightness process. I try to remember that we have made progress/are making progress!

Recall that my mare was given up as "untrainable" due to an inability to canter by multiple trainers. Looking back, I realize that her pickiness about being properly set up for good departs might be related to past PSSM-related discomfort in the canter. When I first got her, she would just stop if she wasn't well positioned to depart---I think it was anticipation of discomfort or of human correction for her canter failure. It made me feel like an idiot who could not ride at all, but so it goes.

On the right lead, we had to live in renvers in canter for quite awhile. But for the departs, it was revers, then fairly straight for the depart. Then back into renvers aids in the canter.
On the left lead, it has been very deliberate shoulder fore all the time, mixed in with some "extreme" haunches in to make her appreciate that shoulder fore (SF is much easier)! We are more straight (shoulder fore both ways) now, but these are my go tos as needed.

I agree that activity in the canter is key. Power helps connection and helps straightness. I will use the touch of the whip on the inside hind if I don't have enough hind activity going on. Some horses get really offended by that kind of use of the whip, but Em knows it means get your butt in gear.

[Tsavo]

When I was having issues with haunches coming in at canter I would turn off the rail into that crookedness and come across the ring like a crazy HP. Without the rail to paste his shoulder against, he would straighten somewhat when coming across. I just kept doing that until he let me put his shoulder inside the haunches.

[piedmontfields]

Tsavo, yes, your "crazy" HP method has a lot in common with my "go ahead and do travers for real down the long side" method!

[Tsavo]

Tsavo, yes, your "crazy" HP method has a lot in common with my "go ahead and do travers for real down the long side" method!

That is very clever, PF! Push it into an actual travers. You are asking for more bend but I am trying to quash it. I will try that if my horse comes sound.

[khall]

Tsavo, piedmont did you ever try counter bending/counter flexion to get the shoulders in alignment? Riding the PRE in Spain, the gelding I liked so much initially wanted to carry his haunches R. Instructor had me ride counter flexion on the circle cantering R. I think his crookedness came more from tension. By the last ride I was not having any issues with haunches coming in.

[Ryeissa]

Tsavo, piedmont did you ever try counter bending/counter flexion to get the shoulders in alignment? Riding the PRE in Spain, the gelding I liked so much initially wanted to carry his haunches R. Instructor had me ride counter flexion on the circle cantering R. I think his crookedness came more from tension. By the last ride I was not having any issues with haunches coming in.

what are you guys doing with your thigh and knees when they do these? Sometimes all I have to do to correct haunches out is open my outside hip as a "block" and they go back into place
For shoulder, I use more of the spiral seat bringing my thigh and knee against the shoulder. It can't always be fixed with my body, but most times I am severely contributing to this asymmetry by my issues.

[Tsavo]

Tsavo, piedmont did you ever try counter bending/counter flexion to get the shoulders in alignment? Riding the PRE in Spain, the gelding I liked so much initially wanted to carry his haunches R. Instructor had me ride counter flexion on the circle cantering R. I think his crookedness came more from tension. By the last ride I was not having any issues with haunches coming in.

I suppose turning it into counter Si would work at trot ... leaving the haunches on the inside track, the shoulders on the outside track and just changing bend. But he wasn't doing it at trot. I no longer do SI or the mirror image at canter. I am convinced the tripping chance is too high.

[Tsavo]

Tsavo, piedmont did you ever try counter bending/counter flexion to get the shoulders in alignment? Riding the PRE in Spain, the gelding I liked so much initially wanted to carry his haunches R. Instructor had me ride counter flexion on the circle cantering R. I think his crookedness came more from tension. By the last ride I was not having any issues with haunches coming in.

what are you guys doing with your thigh and knees when they do these? Sometimes all I have to do to correct haunches out is open my outside hip as a "block" and they go back into place
For shoulder, I use more of the spiral seat bringing my thigh and knee against the shoulder. It can't always be fixed with my body, but most times I am severely contributing to this asymmetry by my issues.

I am using my outside aids and inside leg to bring the shoulders in front of the hinds. He resisted it because he was crooked, in part from the club, and too weak to hold it. The crazy HP and other work strengthened him over time so as to be able to hold it.

This was only a problem going right. When I tried a different saddle, I could easily hold him in SF almost without rein. Needless to say I bought that saddle.) So I have to say my tack was somehow blocking me also. Or he was just stronger and straighter by then. Who knows.

[khall]

Tsavo we did the counter bending in canter. That particular horse was strong and had a superior canter. Good articulation and action no worries on tripping. This instructor went through the Royal School of Andalusia.

[Tsavo]

Yes you are right. I did not think that through. Yes counterbending at canter is fine. That's what I was doing preparing for FCs. SI not so much

[piedmontfields]

Yes counterbending at canter is fine. That's what I was doing preparing for FCs. SI not so much

Me, too (similar use). We can now do this in CC, too. I also like counter bending in canter half pass sometimes as a way for the SI to release (a challenge point in my horse). Tsavo, I think travers at canter is actually pretty hard for many horses so not something I'd jump on necessarily. I was inspired after watching a doma vaquero exhibition in Spain...and I thought, hey, I wonder if my horse could do that?!

Rye, I don't quite understand your question. In general, to correct or affirm alignment, I move or manage the shoulders--not the hind.

[Ryeissa]

Rye, I don't quite understand your question. In general, to correct or affirm alignment, I move or manage the shoulders--not the hind.

my horse was throwing his haunches out, everything else about the horse was placed correctly. So it would not be correct for me to move the shoulders when it was the hind end not tracking with the rest of the horse.

Outside hip back is a general complement to the spiral seat and helping the horse fill the outside rein. You can't fill the outside rein if the haunches are too far out. It makes a lot of sense.

[Tsavo]

Tsavo, I think travers at canter is actually pretty hard for many horses so not something I'd jump on necessarily

travers in canter = canter HP

So third level. But I do agree it is hard which is why it works to straighten when off the rail.

[Ryeissa]

Tsavo, I think travers at canter is actually pretty hard for many horses so not something I'd jump on necessarily

travers in canter = canter HP

So third level. But I do agree it is hard which is why it works to straighten when off the rail.

You don't have to go full blown into HP to guard the haunches. when I do it it's just the hint of the movement in canter- the point (when i use it) is to straighten.

[Chisamba]

I Focusing on using my legs more and not just relying on my back is helping to get and keep horses in front of me .

only for the sake of self satisfaction, i would like to point out that every time we have had this discussion, i have said more leg for the transition, and you have insisted Andrea says seat only. So i find this very interesting.

I thought perhaps it was just because i am much heavier than you but now i find Andrea does advise leg

[Ryeissa]

I Focusing on using my legs more and not just relying on my back is helping to get and keep horses in front of me .

only for the sake of self satisfaction, i would like to point out that every time we have had this discussion, i have said more leg for the transition, and you have insisted Andrea says seat only. So i find this very interesting.

I thought perhaps it was just because i am much heavier than you but now i find Andrea does advise leg

I'm not directly involved in this chat, but I should add a few points. I had also been focusing too much on the seat and not forward leg aids. Sometimes my horse would be too short in the neck and not active when I forgot to do this, but I probably also was screwing up my seat aids....???

I have had to remind him with "kicking leg aids" to refresh forward.

[Chisamba]

Rye, a lot of it is also interpretation, i mean leg has a few applications, just calf, lifted heel, and quick jab, etc, but i still found it really interesting that this time Dresseur was suggested more leg. to be honest it could be any one of the "leg aids"

the thing of course is that forward does not mean faster, and so collection does not mean slower, so more legs simple means keep the hind end engaged, most of the time.

[Ryeissa]

Rye, a lot of it is also interpretation, i mean leg has a few applications, just calf, lifted heel, and quick jab, etc, but i still found it really interesting that this time Dresseur was suggested more leg. to be honest it could be any one of the "leg aids"

the thing of course is that forward does not mean faster, and so collection does not mean slower, so more legs simple means keep the hind end engaged, most of the time.

this speaks to my discussion of what to focus on- Seat lifting sternum first....less leg....cant 'push unless the front is managed..... or send forward and the horse re balances as a secondary product....

I was gradually loosing the push from the hind end, that is just my learning curve.

For me, the leg is adding power, adding thrust, in this context- the "wind in the sail" reason. How the rider achieves that depends on them.

I had SUCH a problem with rushing and falling on the forehand that I must have wandered into the other side of the spectrum. Now I can add power and it's balanced power, not flinging. Its HARD. Dressage is tough.

I will be curious what Dresseur says. we are not necessarily in the same boat and maybe come at it from different POVs.

[piedmontfields]

my horse was throwing his haunches out, everything else about the horse was placed correctly. So it would not be correct for me to move the shoulders when it was the hind end not tracking with the rest of the horse.

So your horse is throwing itself into renvers in the canter?

We were discussing cases where a horse tended to put the haunches in (travers) in the canter--which is quite a common situation.

[Dresseur]

So, for those of you who "know" me, a lot of my dressage training was about using the seat and the back - which is what Paul taught. So, for me, what that translated to was that if I wasn't doing it from my back, I felt like I was doing something wrong. (Other than where I obviously needed leg aids).

A few weeks ago, as Andrea and I were tearing this apart, she said that one of the things that she has found is that over-reliance on the back creates just as many problems for some riders and she suspected that I fell into that camp. So, she encouraged me to use my leg more. If I felt him slow down, don't try to push it forward with my back, rather, keep my position and bump it forward with my leg. Don't try to do the canter transition by leaning forward - essentially shoving with my seat and back - but instead, if he doesn't go, give him a kick forward. The second that I freed myself from trying to do it all with these subtle movements - which were not actually that subtle (you've seen the pics of me leaning forward in the canter lol) my canter position improved greatly, and Miro and other horses feel so much better and Miro especially is improving in the canter by leaps and bounds. It's more in front of me, more free, and more balanced. Because I have more impulsion behind, my overall connection is softer and more out to the bridle - that wind in the sail feeling. So, I'm pretty happy where things are at for the moment.

[Dresseur]

I Focusing on using my legs more and not just relying on my back is helping to get and keep horses in front of me .

only for the sake of self satisfaction, i would like to point out that every time we have had this discussion, i have said more leg for the transition, and you have insisted Andrea says seat only. So i find this very interesting.

I thought perhaps it was just because i am much heavier than you but now i find Andrea does advise leg

Just saw this... I should clarify that it depends on the horse. And, if I said seat only, I was probably over-simplifying. Of course a bit of leg support when needed - usually (irc) I was saying to not use the outside leg or the inside leg to cue the transitions. In any case... I was putting all horses in the same kettle. So, on Gala or any of the FEI level horses, yes to using the seat and very subtle leg aid for the transition (both legs). On a Miro or if the horse has a tendency to be sluggish to the aids or not have enough activity behind, yes to the leg aids. Basically, train the response that I want. (I know you know this, but I'm typing it out so that my process is transparent.) When I started to pay attention to getting the response that I wanted and using more leg in the transition it went like this - give the seat aid combined with a subtle leg aid... (bulking the calf or a slight touch with the heel). No response. Give a sharp kick with both legs- Miro cantered. Settle the canter, transition down. Settle the walk, ask again for canter with the seat aid and very subtle leg aid and I'd get my canter. Now, several weeks in, he's cantering off my seat with energy like a big boy. What I was doing before was begging for the transition by leaning forward, which lightens rather than loads the hind, which on a horse like Miro, matters :/ So, rather than sitting chilly and having the horse canter up underneath me, I was throwing myself into the canter, hoping that the horse would canter too. Whoops. I hope that makes sense and clarifies things.

[Ryeissa]

my horse was throwing his haunches out, everything else about the horse was placed correctly. So it would not be correct for me to move the shoulders when it was the hind end not tracking with the rest of the horse.

So your horse is throwing itself into renvers in the canter?

We were discussing cases where a horse tended to put the haunches in (travers) in the canter--which is quite a common situation.

same solution- just opposite way. I often do haunches out with either inside or outside flexion (the haunches is what i am touching, not shoulder)

So I bend the horse to the outside of the circle and do haunches out with outside flexion

or I have done haunches out with inside flexion

basically I think about what results I need to fix a certain problem and decide how to position the horse. Last year was more about the shoulders, this year it's more about the haunches since I don't have as much problem with the shoulders wiggling L and Rcrooked

And we haven't even touched on the ribcage yet....that takes more of LY ideas. A horse can appear straight on the curve yet the ribs are not in line. I never knew what that felt like till last year. Its not enough to just talk about shoulders and haunches.

[piedmontfields]

[quote="Ryeissa"]basically I think about what results I need to fix a certain problem and decide how to position the horse. /quote]

Basically I "stack 'em up and sit 'em down."

Different strokes!

[Tsavo]

same solution- just opposite way. I often do haunches out with either inside or outside flexion (the haunches is what i am touching, not shoulder)

So I bend the horse to the outside of the circle and do haunches out with outside flexion

or I have done haunches out with inside flexion

basically I think about what results I need to fix a certain problem and decide how to position the horse. Last year was more about the shoulders, this year it's more about the haunches since I don't have as much problem with the shoulders wiggling L and Rcrooked

And we haven't even touched on the ribcage yet....that takes more of LY ideas. A horse can appear straight on the curve yet the ribs are not in line. I never knew what that felt like till last year. Its not enough to just talk about shoulders and haunches.

I see your approach is to isolate various parts of the horse and rider and have 100 things in your brain at once. Is that working for you?

I think if you can distill this down to a few cases it might help.

So you want the horse in one piece which means you want him tracking straight down the track hopefully in at least a slight SF and an inside flexion. Think about the footfalls. Do whatever you need to do while staying in position yourself such that you are tracking straight. This is where you want to be. A key idea is to work towards feeling the horse is elastically in the outside rein. When this happens you will know it and it will feel like the entire horse is in your outside hand.

When you are not in one piece... the most common reason is the haunches are coming in. The easiest way to fix this is to move the shoulders in front of the haunches such that you are tracking straight and back in one piece. I am a veteran of trying to move the haunches back FOR YEARS and I can say it NEVER worked. Rather it gave me some bad riding habits that I had to unlearn.

Counterbending (with inside to the bend flexion) is a good tool to control the outside shoulder so you can place it to the inside to straighten the horse.

I think I know what you mean about rib cage. In order to bend the rib cage has to rotate.

Check this out...

http://www.happy-horse-training.com/bio ... -bend.html

http://www.dingosbreakfastclub.net/Ding ... bend1.html

Reading your posts, I think if you focus just on getting the feet to land in the correct way for SF and bend, that will take care of where the shoulders and haunches are and you don't need to micro-manage the various horse parts. That technique helped me anyway.

[Ryeissa]

Reading your posts, I think if you focus just on getting the feet to land in the correct way for SF and bend, that will take care of where the shoulders and haunches are and you don't need to micro-manage the various horse parts. That technique helped me anyway.

yeah. thanks for your comments. we work from SF quite a lot. My horse is very supple and one of those extra wiggly sorts, hence the needing to micromanage the whole horse.
Yes, my lessons are more advanced than they used to be. I think this is what you get with a engineer trainer and scientist student
But yes, feel is coming a long way. Since I can't articulate feel here i use more linear descriptions and theory. I am asking myself questions to learn more, and to spur discussion on this forum.

[Tsavo]

I agree riding a wiggly horse is different than riding a stiff sucker. The stiff ones look more correct more of the time but you have less to work with.

With a wiggler it is absolutely imperative you establish the inside leg to outside rein as the only organizing principle that has a chance in hell of working in my opinion. I don't think it is possible to ride a horse like that without inside-outside.

What are you working on in your lessons?

[Ryeissa]

I agree riding a wiggly horse is different than riding a stiff sucker. The stiff ones look more correct more of the time but you have less to work with.

With a wiggler it is absolutely imperative you establish the inside leg to outside rein as the only organizing principle that has a chance in hell of working in my opinion. I don't think it is possible to ride a horse like that without inside-outside.

What are you working on in your lessons?

yeah, as I said we work from shoulder fore. We build a lot on the concepts of haunches in, half pass and shoulder in to correct striaghtness issues and build power.
for example, SI two steps, then HP, then LY back to recapture straightness. thanks for asking!

[Chisamba]

I agree riding a wiggly horse is different than riding a stiff sucker. The stiff ones look more correct more of the time but you have less to work with.

With a wiggler it is absolutely imperative you establish the inside leg to outside rein as the only organizing principle that has a chance in hell of working in my opinion. I don't think it is possible to ride a horse like that without inside-outside.

What are you working on in your lessons?

Actually establishing stretch into equal contact is effective. Many people get a wiggly horse hollow on the inside rein. Jmho

[Dresseur]

I agree with Chisamba. It’s all a case by case basis of course, but I personally have had more success sending wigglers more forward into equal contact.

[Ryeissa]

Right my training has worked on straightened and tempo....It took me a bit longer due to Wigglepants but I'm a more sensitive rider now.

[Tsavo]

How long do you do that before you go to inside-outside though?

Is this like BBM where you do it for a tiny while and then do balance within movement the entire rest of the training?

I agree with Chisamba that you can't have a horse hollow on the inside rein and that it is easier to do SI with only the outside rein instead of both reins. The horse has to be in both reins in SI to be correct and that being just on the outside rein is not correct. But the value in the two reins has to be different or else IW would constantly say both legs to both reins.

[Ryeissa]

How long do you do that before you go to inside-outside though?

Is this like BBM where you do it for a tiny while and then do balance within movement the entire rest of the training?

I agree with Chisamba that you can't have a horse hollow on the inside rein and that it is easier to do SI with only the outside rein instead of both reins. The horse has to be in both reins in SI to be correct and that being just on the outside rein is not correct. But the value in the two reins has to be different or else IW would constantly say both legs
to both reins.

The outside rein is the connecting rein in shoulder In .

The balance must come from a properly placed rib cage which allows for correct inside and outside positioning.


The horse needs to keep a long outside body and the energy moves from the inside scapula to the outside withers.

The horse can't collapse the inside scapula and push in.

[Ryeissa]

Back to the topic of canter, this work is relevant because its how i improve the canter straightness and quality.

[Chisamba]

How long do you do that before you go to inside-outside though?

Is this like BBM where you do it for a tiny while and then do balance within movement the entire rest of the training?

I agree with Chisamba that you can't have a horse hollow on the inside rein and that it is easier to do SI with only the outside rein instead of both reins. The horse has to be in both reins in SI to be correct and that being just on the outside rein is not correct. But the value in the two reins has to be different or else IW would constantly say both legs to both reins.

for example if i do shoulder in and i feel like the horse is hollow on the inside rein , i will simply add a 10 m circle and then go back to the shoulder in, or i will change from SI to renver and back to SI. horses simply will use the "escape from hard work" route " the rider offers, so a person too committed to inside leg to outside rein will sometimes forget the reach. I often will ask my horse to lengthen its neck right in the middle of a shoulder in, to make sure that it is still able to stretch over the topline even in the lateral work, She does not have fabulous gaits anyway, so its useful too , to make sure that she is reaching underherself with her hind legs, as opposed to posing in the the lateral work.

I do not disagree with inside leg to outside rein, i just think that it needs to be understood that the horse should still be reaching over the topline, for which the best way to check is how the horse responds to the inside rein, aka, both reins

[Chisamba]

in regards to the canter, adding the 10 m circle amid lateral work is very helpful because it is easy to let the horses haunches either lead, or trail.

wrt to seat. it is also very easy to get "leaning" in the canter work lateral if the rider, especially me, is not careful, which very much interferes will the horses ability to be "straight" in the bending work. even in my earlier years, i see photos of myself dropping a shoulder in my canter pirouette

[Ryeissa]

How long do you do that before you go to inside-outside though?

Is this like BBM where you do it for a tiny while and then do balance within movement the entire rest of the training?

I agree with Chisamba that you can't have a horse hollow on the inside rein and that it is easier to do SI with only the outside rein instead of both reins. The horse has to be in both reins in SI to be correct and that being just on the outside rein is not correct. But the value in the two reins has to be different or else IW would constantly say both legs to both reins.

for example if i do shoulder in and i feel like the horse is hollow on the inside rein , i will simply add a 10 m circle and then go back to the shoulder in, or i will change from SI to renver and back to SI. horses simply will use the "escape from hard work" route " the rider offers, so a person too committed to inside leg to outside rein will sometimes forget the reach. I often will ask my horse to lengthen its neck right in the middle of a shoulder in, to make sure that it is still able to stretch over the topline even in the lateral work, She does not have fabulous gaits anyway, so its useful too , to make sure that she is reaching underherself with her hind legs, as opposed to posing in the the lateral work.

I do not disagree with inside leg to outside rein, i just think that it needs to be understood that the horse should still be reaching over the topline, for which the best way to check is how the horse responds to the inside rein, aka, both reins

Agree. This speaks to what I was hoping to articulate about managing both the lateral and longitudinal aspects of balance. Shoulder fore helps with both, yes.
Its not movements that I focus on, its what the movements are showing me and how I use the movements to achieve straighteness.
I only do a movement as long as its helpful such as 2 steps of half pass. If my horse can't sustain I drop back to shoulder fore and start back with improved balance.
Think about what you want to achieve and how to get there. I no longer do stuff blindly.
.