March-ing into 2021, and April too - Goals and progress

[Kyra's Mom]

Thanks for the thoughts Chisamba. I feel better but still kind of yucky. I am eating again (carefully) but still feel "off". Not as young as I used to be, I guess . I wanted to lose weight...down 5.5 lbs since last Friday and thus far it is staying off. Not sure if that is indicative of my hydration status but I'm drinking like a fish to try to replace all those fluids or if the episode allowed for a little re-set? I don't know but hope I can keep up a slower, more deliberate and non-hurling weight loss .

So, Kyra has now had another week off. Oh well. The weather has been less than stellar. Monday we had snow, hail, rain, lightening/thunder and Tuesday was 30pm wind. Not the best days to work a horse, especially my horse (the horse that hates wind).

I am going out today and I will probably just give her a warm up lunge and hopefully get back in the saddle Friday. It is supposed to rain and maybe snow again tomorrow. By Sunday it is supposed to be in the mid sixties so there is hope .

Happy riding all.

Susan

[Moutaineer]

I got wind of a retirement barn i hadn't come across before about 45 minutes from home. Went to see it yesterday, and its really very nice indeed, so I've made the decision and Laddie will be moving there in a couple of weeks. He still has something hoof abscess related going on in that foot, so I think pulling his shoes and turning him out on soft ground/pasture is the way to go. We will see if that gives everything a chance to move and drain. And as the place is 5 minutes from my vet's clinic, it will be easy for them to cast an eye over it if necessary.

Its kind of the end of an era, but it's time. Maybe he will come sound again. But we will see. He will be happy ambling around a grass pasture for the spring and summer, and we can re evaluate in the Fall.

[Moutaineer]

In other news, Potters is just a charmer and has the entire barn wrapped round his little finger. We haven't ridden much yet as he is rather tender footed from an over enthusiastic trim prior to his coming to me, and our mud vs the dry desert environment he came from. His new hoof boots arrived and he is moving much happier in them, but I've decided to shoe him next week, so we can actually get back to work.

[StraightForward]

I'm sure Laddie will enjoy the retirement place, even if it is not permanent. Yeah, at some point it's just too much trying to keep them duct-taped together. Glad you are having a good time with the new guy.

Tesla has started the whole stopping thing again. Yesterday she was just awful. Today wasn't quite as bad, but she still stopped on me several times. It seems that she is just overthinking the cantering thing, then tries to canter, goes sideways and shuts down. Then to the left she is doing this weird throwing her haunches out and spiraling out thing. I'm able to get her past it and end with a few minutes of good work, but it's quite frustrating.

Annabelle was good today for the most part. Last night between the spooking because a couple kids were riding their horses down in the bottom of the irrigation canal and splashing around, we worked on cantering a straight line, and then half a volte with a bit of a pirouette feel, and then another straight line. Today we did our pole work, and she was able to canter over three poles without falling apart, which is a first for her. She is also taking my half halt and going over the trot poles with more cadence. Looking forward to lessons next weekend.

[Chisamba]

I did tell you about reading a book. we had a power outage and only a kerosene lantern so I pulled out a book I have long found to be a difficult read. The Elements of Dressage by Kurd Albrecht Von Zeigner. I have a hard time reading it because of the absolute/ only way ( I am God hear me) tone. Yes, I have no doubt you read it and didn't sense that tone at all.

anyway he stands by the training pyramid but modifies it into a training tree.

this is not intended to be a review or criticism of the book. It is just a story about how I found another successful element to training.

My general method of improving a ride is to take the time to correct the most fundamental error when a mistake is made.

for easy example, the horse spooks at the corner, throws its head up and leaps sideways. my mind immediately analysis the most fundamental error and I use my aids until the error is corrected, then continue to the next until we are at least as good as we were before the error. reading Von Ziegner did not change my plan, but it did inspire me to modify my analysis of success to not be satisfied with as good as it was, but to add, to be as good as it was AND relaxed.

I am repeating this story somewhat, but I am doing so because it had been exceptionally impact full. everything, and I mean everything is better when the goal is relaxation. By relaxation, von Ziegner defines it as the absence of tension in body and mind and I add, while being on the aids. It is not an easy goal. simple obedience is a much easier goal.

when I ask Kimba for something difficult she throws her heart into it with zeal, but tension. trying to keep the zeal in absence of tension has improved her quality of gait self carriage, collection but it takes about 3 times longer.

[Aleuronx]

This is very timely Chisamba as I'm trying to mentally turn this break from riding/training as a positive thing that when we are back in the saddle (lol) my main focus will be keeping the relaxation first. Returning to that relaxation to build a pattern of harmony before anything else. I've been starting this in our long-lining work and the occasional bareback walk-a-bout, so thinking about it a lot.

Current saddle status is delayed at least a week due to Easter holiday, which I expected. 'Should be ready the week of the April 12th' - I believe that means completed but not shipped/received and fitter out to me for final fit. So...deep breaths and trying to be patient. May?

Straightforward I've been thinking of you and Tesla. I certainly don't want to be an armchair dressage coach so please ignore me if you think I'm off-base. Have you tried getting in a 3-point position, off her back in the canter and just let her cruise? It might be a balance/unsure how to balance her canter and you as a rider that's got her stuck. Might be worth a try to just bridge your reins, plant your hands on her neck, get the butt out of the saddle and go. The other thing I would try is posting her canter which I just learned of this fall and wow that was a mind blown moment but really encourages them to flow more underneath you and helps build a rhythm for them.

[StraightForward]

Aleuronx, that would be my first thought too, but she actually hates having me in a forward seat. Keeping my shoulders back is a must to avert the grinding to a halt thing. Right now we are not even trying to canter, but she thinks of it at certain spots and spins out, and she just finds different locations in the arena that have apparently turned to quicksand on any given day, and shuts down in that location several times before I can get her happily going around. I have to drive her really hard on the lunge line as well to get a "real" canter, otherwise it is a slow lope with a stiff back. It is getting better, just a two steps forward, one step back, another step to the side. Things were going well for a few weeks, but introducing cantering seemed to trigger the stopping again. She's taken two years to get decent with her feet, and almost three years to learn to lunge, so I don't suppose I should expect obedience under saddle very quickly either. I am grateful to have Annabelle who is fun to ride now to balance things out.

Hope you get your saddle soon. It is hard to wait when it's cutting into spring riding!

[Chisamba]

straightforward, if you are out in a field with friends and go for a gallop what does she do?

I had a horse brought to me for training who was totally shut down in the canter. we've did the well known gymnastic trot poles to a high x rail to an over and cantered away. didn't take long to free the canter, but of course I am sure you have already made sure they're isn't a stifle issue or PSSM. for my horses baulking at canter was the first sign of PSSM2 I do not have a good enough memory to know if you had mentioned checking for those things.

[StraightForward]

No access to fields and friends with steady trail horses here unfortunately.

I don't think there is a physical issue other than normal baby weakness. Although I never had him diagnosed, I'm pretty sure Obie has a mild case of PSSM that started when he was four (responded to diet change) and this seems different. She had several lameness rechecks following her OCD surgery last summer, and her stifle radiographs were perfect when I purchased her. Her right lead canter is getting better on the lunge each time, and she can canter left no problem, and canters in turnout. It really seems to be a mental thing with her - for example, there was a jump set up about 8' away from the arena fence, and she didn't think she could go between the jump and the fence maintaining trot, so most of our ride a few days ago was working on not losing momentum trotting through the "gate" and when she did, she got praise and finished for the day. She will also go very "stuck" in trot as well if I let her, but once she warms up she has a really big lovely trot and no problem maintaining it. If there is stuff going on to distract her she is often better because she is not focused on blocking out my requests. Often she will do things easily the first 2-3 times they are introduced, then start protesting when she is no longer naïve to the thing.

[heddylamar]

Maia — who's always forward — went through a similar balky baby/tween period. There was nothing physically wrong with her. But, for about 18 months if I asked for too much at any moment, she'd hit the brakes. OTOH, if I stopped and mentally reset, then didn't ask too much we'd be off.

It took a few weeks before the over asking on my part clued me in. She seemed very confident, forward, and balanced ... but if I asked too much of her in the moment, she errored out.

[khall]

SF it’s that WB questioning. I do know I rode Rip out in the field a bunch as a young horse because the fence of my arena was enough to back him off and I have a fairly good sized arena 80x200. We have a 10 acre hay field that I rode him in. Just having those long lines helped keep him forward. I still ride in the field some but it’s not for the forward issue but to just have change of scenery.

[StraightForward]

SF it’s that WB questioning. I do know I rode Rip out in the field a bunch as a young horse because the fence of my arena was enough to back him off and I have a fairly good sized arena 80x200. We have a 10 acre hay field that I rode him in. Just having those long lines helped keep him forward. I still ride in the field some but it’s not for the forward issue but to just have change of scenery.

Yeah. She was better tonight, but still a little sticky at the beginning, and then at the end when she assumed she was done. Another boarder said she was chuckling to herself a bit watching my struggles the other day because her WB gelding was the same when he was green. I think she really dislikes feeling unbalanced as well, and instead of scrambling, she just stops. I was really careful to give her lots of support with my inside leg and using my weight aids to ground her outside legs and we got some nice forward trot and none of the spinning out with the haunches. I think I just go greedy with the cantering when she was offering it. We did a few strides today and I put her back in trot while it was still my decision. That is just where we are going to live until I have unequivocal forward response installed in the trot. I'm skipping lessons with her this weekend, but if will check in with my instructor when she comes back later in April to make sure we don't go too far off the rails.

Annabelle was a gem tonight. Very adjustable and moving through t/c/t/c/w/c transitions on a circle, and shifting through different trots and canters. Really looking forward to our lessons next weekend.

Today it was 75 and tomorrow will be 48 for a high with 20 mph winds, so they'll get a break for at least a day.

[exvet]

Sounds like a productive weekend for most. I had company fly in so we didn't do a lot in terms of total hours of ride time, some trail riding, some cavalletti work and a lesson yesterday. My daughter was a huge help in that she hauled over with me to my lesson so that she could baby sit the Colonel. It was the first time he's been on a trailer since I hauled him home and only the second time in his life. She was supposed to help me load but was running late; so, I decided to give it a try without her help. Brandon just loaded up like a dream, stood quietly while I went back to the barn to get Junior and then loaded him up as well. He was a perfect gentleman at my instructor's place while my daughter just hand walked him and let him see the sights.

Junior did well too. I got to try out the wrist bands which made a huge difference with my wavering right hand and bum shoulder. Despite his willing nature and efforts to please I've been suspicious that Junior has developed a beach in his gut. I've long been a use of psyllium due to living in the desert; but, I don't think my maintenance/preventive efforts have been successful. As a result I think Junior has ulcers as well; so, I've decided to treat him for both and see if it makes a difference. Hopefully my 'lack of diagnostics' will not hinder my hope of getting him in tip top shape again. I've decided that once he's is definitely on the mend we're going to forge ahead with third level. Here are a couple of pictures from my lesson (shoulder in) and a phase of increasing the engagement/carry of our medium.

https://app.photobucket.com/u/ldarling_ ... d332876f2e

https://app.photobucket.com/u/ldarling_ ... 5c40ac97e4

[Sue B]

So wind is in the 30's expecting gusts 40-50, whatever...this weekend was relatively lovely, warm, wind gusts only in the low 20's. Rode T and Ru, managed to wtc T both directions easy peasy, on cue etc etc.

SF, as you know, Tio was the master of getting stuck and, at times, his canter was nightmarish. I gave up cantering him under saddle until he was done growing. I some cantering/hand-galloping out in the hay field to "free him up" but in the arena, he preferred 20m circles. It was cantering down the long side one fateful day that caused me to hit the ground and break my back. All because of a little stumble. He was 7 then, cantering in and out of the arena and over low jumps, so I think he would've progressed just fine had it not been for our little set-back. That was was the first year I was seriously addressing the canter, prior to that it was all trot work. This last year, I took another hiatus from canter because on the first anniversary of my injury I suddenly became fearful about cantering him, and then he injured his stifle being an idjit. I ultimately decided to go back to just working on the trot for a year. He now does ly, si, tof, early toh, shallow travers, h-t-h, 10m circles and baby lengthenings. I haven't had a "stuck" episode since last summer either. So this winter one day, I asked for canter and he stepped right into it as though we'd been doing it all along. To the right, he even allows me to hh without dropping into trot. He just feels so confident in himself (the way he did before I got hurt) and his abilities. I think that is what Tesla is struggling with.

Btw, early on Tio preferred a full seat to a half-seat in the canter, even when approaching a jump. He always did his best cantering those few strides off the jump and it was how I taught him my aid for the canter.

[Sue B]

I forgot why I really posted. I was working on something with Rudy (it escapes me right now) and got to thinking about this whole "stay relaxed" thing. Good dressage horses often get tense when they're trying to figure out how to use their own body to get the "right" answer, i.e. trying too hard. Not only do I struggle with that riding, but I can also relate it now to the French horn. I have been told (by ds) and have read, that it is important to develop "buzz" without tension. Apparently, one has to be able to expel air through softly vibrating lips creating an insanely small apperature in order to get the desired clear, consistent tonal quality desired. Right now, I can do that maybe 10% of the time, while ds, who's been playing for 6 years, can do that almost without thought except in extremely high registers. So I practice buzzing all day long, but I limit my actual playing time to an absolute max of 30 minutes, having noticed that lip muscles do, in fact, get tired and no longer respond to my commands. That is how I ride my horses too. We do a lot of noodling around developing underlying strength but hit the "hard" stuff in short bursts. Over months and years, what was once difficult becomes second nature and a whole new set of challenges comes up. If, in riding, I could just get the balance right, then pony could theoretically learn to perform at Grand Prix level without ever struggling and getting tense. That's how really good riders do it, i think!

Sorry for rambling

[khall]

But what is tension and what is resistance? Rip rarely gets tense in the way I think of tension ( I used to own and ride an OTTB g who had tension down pat). In fact most of mine don’t get tense but I also don’t really have an over achiever like chisamba says kimba is. Joplin probably would be the closest to that but really she rarely gets tense. Now they all can get looky about stuff especially windy days. Yet keeping their attention through work helps that. I certainly know what chisamba means by tension from trying so hard I just don’t ha e those types of horses. In fact the work I do with Rip and to a lesser degree Gaila I try to add that positive tension in to help create the energy needed for the work.

But I do get resistance. Have had resistance exactly what SF writes about with Tesla. I don’t wanna!! I have gotten resistance in left lateral work especially HI with Rip. Left is his harder bending side. Would you consider that tension? Braciness? Which is what I think.

But tension is what I always thought of with my OTTB. His tension was full on rock hard jigging tight back and sometimes explosive. Incredibly difficult to sit on because of that tension. It came from him mentally. That is just not the horses I ride now.


For example the other day I was riding Rip and was asking for snappy gaits. Short collected snappy walk. Energetic trot active canter. Being very demanding about it yet Rip never got tense and we got some nice work in trot where he was offering that energy (what also helped was playing with bend and counter bend on the circle) at the trot and was getting lovely C and CC transitions on the circle. We stopped with that when he gave me a lovely right CC his harder side.

Definitely interesting topic to explore

[Sue B]

Khall, yes...that's the difference between Rudy (TB) and Tio (WB). Tio can be but very excited, but rarely does he lock his back or even neck (that used to be his go-to movement, lock the neck and spin, hehe). When he's thinking hard, he points his upper lip. Rudy, otoh, takes everything to heart, worries about "getting the right answer" and locks up at the base of his neck, sometimes his back. Tension comes from trying too hard, just like me trying to achieve a certain note on the horn. I keep thinking if I can figure out a way to overcome this with the horn, I should also be able to help Rudy more effectively. In other words, tension in a TB-type horse is all about the mental game, tension in the wb-type horse shows up more like resistance, requiring, perhaps, a different mindset. I pretty much never have to worry about Tio spooling up, but I do have to be careful with Rudy. I like having such different challenges every day!

[Kyra's Mom]

As SueB said, a little 'lion' left in March. The wind came screaming through about 1 this morning. 60mph in Boise .Was down in the low 30's by sunrise after 77 degrees yesterday. There was just enough rain mixed with that wind that anything that was outside was spotted. I can't even see out my bedroom window . No riding today although I did go out and throw her blanket on her to try and give her a little wind break and maybe a little warmth. It was supposed to die down starting around 3pm...nope still ripping away at least 20 mph:P .

The weather people said the wind was coming so I managed to get in a short ride yesterday (77 degrees). She was good...I think she had enough points that those were bothering her mouth. All the tissue in her mouth is very fleshy. It takes nothing to pinch it here or poke it there with a point. So it seems the dental was very much needed. She was very soft but definite in the contact and I was able to warm her up in a nice longish and lowish trot with a very nice feel. I didn't have much time but we worked on w-t transitions and being prompt. I asked for the trot with just a tickle of the whip and not so much leg. She was pushing forward in her strike-offs and very prompt. She was getting to the point I could just think trot and she went. Hopefully, I can get her back into regular work this week.

Happy riding all.

Susan

[piedmontfields]

I am definitely behind on all of the updates, but am still dropping in without reading thoroughly :-0 Thinking of you all as you handle illness, horse changes and relocations, training adventures and more! SF, I personally find a horse built like your big T harder to ride---even though it can well be worth the wait for their development! So glad you are enjoy A. too.

I do love the question what is tension and what is resistance. I have a mare who is often tense (her go to feeling), but rarely resists. It's a bit unusual of a combination? I am someone who is unphased by tension (I don't have an electric bum--I have a chill out bum), though.

Emi and I are continuing down the rehab path. We had a scare several weeks ago with a new splint popping on the same suspensory injury leg. But she was sound the whole time and X-rays and ultrasound have been reassuring about continued healing and progress. It is just a long process. Today she did a warm up in the arena and then a nice hack under a blue sky to the xc field. She was a bit high (tons of deer popping about) but utterly obedient and happy. I am so grateful for her good mind in these times. She is spooky, but obedient. So many times this spring we are working in high winds---although more like 30-40 mph as opposed to out west like Sue B and Susan!

I am certainly starting to think about another horse, but I don't have the time to do rehab and work another. It will become clear in time.

[Tanga]

Ahhhhhh!! First world problems. I was very much looking forward to a show on Saturday and finishing most of my qualifications for championships and showing for the judge and scribing for her the next day. This was the show and judge that was cancelled last minute last year for Covid. It was cancelled because someone is paranoid about EHV-1 even though we have had no cases on the west coast that I know of. Sigh. Hopefully we will not have fires, again, this summer, which will require a cancelling of the summer show! Not looking good with our massive lack of rain.

Oh well. It will be OK. I was really wanting to see the difference with being able to ride in front of mirrors are the new barn. I think it has helped so much. Good thing is I also have my GP freestyle all put together and the basic music cut done. I will do that beginning of May. Yes, we are qualified, because the last show, with pretty much the same ride as that Jan show where I we played guess the score and I got 57%? I got almost 63% in Feb.

As for tension, piedmontfields, I have that horse that is tense, but doesn't really resist. Quinn is a bundle of tense and tight. I noticed since the move to the new place where she is with a herd (she still doesn't like anyone but mom and sister) she is more relaxed in the pasture. But she is still a little to a lot tense, no matter what. Leading her she gets tight and tense and trips and looks. Riding she can be from very tight and tense so it's like riding a log, to getting better. She doesn't usually do much resisting except reacting by tensing more, or trying to drop her head and run. We go back and forth. With her my big thing is to never hold or hang on her, or even be too steady. I have to constantly keep some movement to keep her from tightening. I do a lot of practice collecting and extending by way overmoving my hands back and forth to force/reming her to keep her head and neck unlocked and moving.

[Moutaineer]

Tanga, my info is that there were a couple of cases in Rancho Murietta--I know my trainer and her crew opted to not go show out there next month because of it.

It's certainly taking longer to get back to "normal" than we thought it would, in all walks of life.

Potters was a gem for his shots etc., this morning, and gets shoes and pads tomorrow, so then we can actually get to work. As my vet said, "oh, my, the poor guy is on his nubbins on all 4 feet!" So, not a lot has happened except a few strolls around the indoor in his boots, for which he has been totally chill, even when we had the big roll up door into the great beyond open for the first time on Sunday, which freaks a lot of horses out. It's so interesting that he has such a reputation for being a spook. Well, maybe when his feet aren't so tender he might get more adventurous, so I shouldn't speak too soon!

I'm a wheezing, breathless bag of spring allergies and lack of fitness at the moment, though. I'm going to have to up my game.

The next project is a saddle that fits us both. Laddie's is "OK" with shims for him, but is tipping me a bit forward and parts of my anatomy are not happy.

My barn manager is the local rep and fitter for Custom and Bliss, so I get to try some new stuff over the next couple of weeks. First up is a Loxley from Bliss, (isn't that what you ordered, Flight?) which looks quite promising and is at a sensible price point.

If that doesn't work, I get to go delving in the consigned Customs.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

piedmontfields, I'm glad that rehab is still going well although I know it's slow going! I'm glad that the scare seems to not have turned into anything serious affecting the healing.

Tanga, bummer about the show but I do hope that you can do the freestyle at some point and then we get to watch here!!

Mountaineer, I have to tell you I just love the name Potters. It's so cute! I'm glad that he's been so sensible so far while he's settling in. Shoes and pads will be really nice you guys can really get down to business!


The mud and muck here is driving me crazy. I'm supposed to have a dressage lesson next week and I have yet to be on Lynx at the new barn. The first week I was just giving him some time and of course the weather was so horrible. But now I think it's time to get on him and I cannot get his girth area clean!! I think it's a mix of mud and manure as they were able to clean the paddock because of all that snow. I'm not a happy camper and I've been working a train to get him cleaned up for a week. Arg. It's starting to warm up so I'm hoping a good scrubbing in the wash rack will do the trick. I think I'm going to try and get him clipped as well...

The trainer that I wanted to send him into training just had a pretty serious injury and will be facing surgery. I'm waiting to hear the full prognosis but I'm thinking I will need to find someone else use this summer. Gah!

He's been very good though. He's such a sweet horse. I think I would like shoes on him as in parts of the footing and he acts a little hesitant. But I cannot put shoes on him and have him live in that mud. I'm going to have to figure out a different situation I think.

[Tanga]

Tanga, my info is that there were a couple of cases in Rancho Murietta--I know my trainer and her crew opted to not go show out there next month because of it.

Oh wow. I hadn't heard that! Not good. I know some people who went to that show at the barn I left, and they aren't so careful with vaccines at that barn. My friend in Germany says all shows are shut down there. Jeese. Please no horse plagues now!

lipsmacker I wasn't doing the freestyle at this show because they don't do them. Too complicated to set up the sound system, and apparently you can't just bring a boombox anymore. I will show it for the first time in May.

[MsM]

I had Alfie re-evaluated by my vet. (he had an injured DDFT Dec 2018 and Navicular changes per MRI) He has seemed sound since rehab, but I was really nervous. Vet palpated and hoof tested and pronounced him solid like a rock. Then he watched him move and said he is "not just sound but damn good!"

We continue slow progress as I am working on my own crookedness issues. And I am also in uncharted territory in attempting some movements I barely rode 30 years ago! My Florida instructor usually comes back North in April, but wont be around until June this year. She did give me the name of someone else to call, but it turns out that she may return to being an AA and so wont teach. I dont have a truck and trailer so going to an instructor would be a bit of an event (though getting him off property is one of my goals) Still looking for options...

[StraightForward]

Tanga, bummer about the shows, but I'm sure everyone is extra sensitized to transmissible diseases right now!

Moutaineer, glad to hear Potters is continuing to be a good boy and less spooky than you might have expected. Maybe he just knows he landed in a good situation!

LSP, glad Lynx is working out well too. Hope you can get the mud situation sorted and start riding him. Maybe the lack of trainer availability is a sign that you should just forge on with him yourself.

MsM, I haven't followed Alfie's saga, but it sounds like he is on a good trajectory now. Very encouraging after such a long recovery process! I've posted about it before, but doing Feldenfit has helped me quite a bit with my crookedness issues for a minimal time investment.

Today I rode like a sack of hot garbage. I don't know if I was tired or what, but just couldn't get my head in the game. Annabelle was a good girl anyway, but the trot work was especially lackluster and it was my fault entirely. In that frame of mind I definitely wasn't going to ride Tesla, so I decided to lunge and introduce her to side reins. I use Lauffer (sliding) reins and it took her a bit to figure out, but I could see the lightbulb click on, and I think this is going to be a useful tool for teaching her to engage and go forward. She is pretty sensible about knowing when she is in a "box" and found a good position to work from. Only did a couple minutes of trot, but was quite pleased with how she did. I vary rarely use side reins, but think I'll do this maybe 2x a week for the next month or so as it takes care of organizing her front end and allows me to focus on getting her forward from that hind end without as much risk of getting my head kicked off.

[Chisamba]

Is resistance not just a version of tension? I work with people with behavioral disorders, and there are 5 main reasons for " non compliance". 1) power
2) attention
3) comprehension
4) doesn't think they can do it
5,) actually unable to perform

I think horses are similar enough to bother to share the education. in human differentiating between a power struggle and attention seeking behavior is important but I do not know if it matters in the four legged friends. so for the sake of this lump the two together. who is the "winner" in the power struggle/ attention seeking battle. clue, it's not the one who achieves compliance, it's the one who does not become angry or frustrated. fix. remain good humored calm and break it down into smaller achievable steps
Comprehension is a big one. just because you explained something, it just because they have done it before, did not mean they automatically understand what you are asking for.

make sure you have been clear and break the request into smaller steps.

they don't think they can do it? why. tension, fear, isolation, stress,

fix: break it down into smaller achievable confidence building steps.

they actually cannot do it.

fix. teach by breaking it down into smaller achievable steps.

so my point is it doesn't matter if it's fear , tension, inability, or " resistance " you still fix it the same way. consistent pressure and reward in smaller achievable . with horses at least. forcing compliance in humans is illegal.

in humans after any behavioral incident, when writing your report, the incident only ends when you " return to daily routine "

so all of that blah blah blah was just too say I do not differentiate between resistance, fear, anticipation and tension, they are all a form of tension and returning to relaxation is the goal or return to normal routine. in horses I guess it would be relaxing into contact with regular tempo and rhythm.

just a few thoughts.

[Chisamba]

As for tension, piedmontfields, I have that horse that is tense, but doesn't really resist. Quinn is a bundle of tense and tight. I noticed since the move to the new place where she is with a herd (she still doesn't like anyone but mom and sister) she is more relaxed in the pasture. But she is still a little to a lot tense, no matter what. Leading her she gets tight and tense and trips and looks. Riding she can be from very tight and tense so it's like riding a log, to getting better. She doesn't usually do much resisting except reacting by tensing more,

yes! yes ! yes.

and it affects quality of gait and exercises.

I do ride horses who resist when they are tense but Kimba generally does not, she hurries, or tightens,

[StraightForward]

I think tension and resistance are kind of two sides to the same coin. Thinking about people, if there is something we are unsure about, we might either express a lot of anxiety about dealing with it - essentially get nervous and flight - or avoid it, which is kind of the same as resisting. Of course as humans we have the benefit of preconception of what is expected of us, but I think the responses can be similar.

[khall]

I just do not agree that tension and resistance are the same. With a tense horse I slow everything down. Break it down and make it easier. With a horse like Rip he does best keeping things snappy and interesting and more complicated to keep his brain engaged. If I slow things down he goes to sleep. That is why I don’t do very much stretching with him. That is his preferred way of going.

I’ve always operated under the method that the hot goey horses that can anticipate I ride with minimal aids and close leg and slow down my own inner energy. With horses like Rip I have to keep my inner self buzzing. As for the resistance I get from him left bend that has just been his harder way. As a young horse that left side he would stiffen and try to leave. Never really went anywhere but did bounce off the fence a few times.

For example the last ride in the arena I was working WC/WCC on a circle. And bend counter bend in the trot (I counter bend in the canter as well). He just clocked right through the work I kept insisting on activity and challenging him physically and mentally with different exercises and we were able to move right through and be finished in 40 minutes. While with a tense horse I still would work more difficult exercises to help keep them with me the beginning of the ride would look way different. Lots of long and low and slow work to get them soft and supple in the back. It’s just completely different approach to the work.

I know with Rip and I bet Tesla will be the same is you have to be willing to push them and yes you might get some spectacular explosions but never going there means they do not advance.

Early in trotting Rip in hand to do in hand work was dangerous. He would throw his head around sometimes throw feet around but I kept persisting kept asking and now I can work him with one hand on the reins and ask for more activity in the piaffe work with the whip. Early on he would have dirt skied me and probably thrown a back leg at me too. These more resistant horses need to learn to expand their try and it ain’t always pretty getting there! Yet rarely do I consider what Rip is doing throwing a foot or his head tension.

After my trip to Portugal I came away with a new appreciation of how much pressure horses could handle in the work that they do. The Valenca’s is a professional barn with 50 or so horses in there that work for a living. Whether it is to do their Cavaluna show or teach riders or sales horses. They all work hard in all manners of dressage. Piaffe passage pirouettes airs we saw it all. They pushed those horses in their work yet never did I see any unfairness. If one was being difficult (one stallion we handled was having a stallion day) they got pushed pretty hard. The younger ones were brought out worked and put away fairly quickly. But it all showed me asking for the difficult stuff does require pretty strong pressure at times. As long as we rider’s understand where we are wanting to end up that pressure can be fairly strong at times depending on the horse. I don’t always get it right with Rip and I’ve had the bruises to show for it. I do definitely agree with chisamba about keeping your cool during the work. Pushing hard does not mean punishing. I don’t punish Rip if he explodes ie leaps about throwing legs I just regroup and ask again maybe not quite as strong:)

[Chisamba]

khall, but you are describing 2 * or more) different horses. do you ride Rip ( or the same horse) differently if you believe he is being tense or resistant. Do you make a different decision based on one a particular horse if you judge their non compliance differently?

I personally fix the most predominant non compliance first, incorrect response to the leg, incorrect response to the rein, return to relaxed compliance, continue. smaller components doesn't mean slower. ( unless the rider is incapable of it) I simply say, get off my inside leg, accept my outside rein, don't try to.mive my hand, and release as soon as the horse responds correctly to the added input. the horse itself defrayals how much input the added aid needs. if it doesn't respond to the inside leg because it is counterfeiting and spooking. then my leg aid may be stronger or sharper. if it comes close to bouncing off the wall because the inside leg is applied to the hollow side, my outside rein says straighten, or even counter bend because of you hit the wall its going to be your nose that hits it, not my knee, break it down into component parts. fix it, return to relaxed compliance and continue.

it's okay if that doesn't work for you. I suppose it's irrelevant for me to describe my hallelujah moment, because it probably just dies not spooky to anyone else.

I am not here to say anyone else is right or wrong. I am saying I hadnan hallelujah moment.

my hallelujah moment was realizing that every horse I ride dies better if I do not simply seek compliance, but I seek relaxed compliance.

by better I mean.. better gait, better expression, better self carriage, and better activity behind.

I find this to be true in the face of current contrary popular opinion where its becoming popular to talk about positive tension. second trot ( under pressure) etc.

[khall]

Rip and to a lesser degree Gaila yes I do have to ride differently. I have to insist on energy and lightness to the aids. If I get resistance I keep riding don’t change the request ride them through it then when they soften I soften too and go to neutral. That is my goal in riding to be able to ride with in neutral after my request for the movement. Can be difficult on these WBs because their MO is energy conservatives. Sticky or feet grounded. I like to ride a light footed horse that wants to move. That is Joplin but not my WBs at all.

So a horse that I prefer to work with is both mentally and physically attentive. Sensitive but sensible which is Joplin (her dam was too) to a T. Rip nor Gaila are all that sensitive and they both have mental gymnastics going on with Rip being the more difficult. Yet it’s not tension in the sense I’ve always considered to be tension. A horse that is worried or like kimba trying too hard. Rip is always exploring his boundaries how far can he go in his non compliance:) Now with all the training he has on him I can use the more difficult work to concentrate his mind. Keep his attention. Between his more knowledge and strength and suppleness with the work he finds the work easier but he still is not one to offer I have to ask. I have to create that energy for the work with the aids I use. Rip rarely anticipates. I wished he did. I could channel that anticipation.

Mark went to Portugal to ride with NO. He spoke of riding those young stallions in piaffe early on to concentrate and channel those stallion hormones. Of course those Iberians are masters of piaffe and Rip finds it difficult but it’s the same thought of using the more demanding work to keep his attention. But it also makes him more rideable. I don’t think of it as relaxed compliance but the acceptance of the aids and how rideable they are so I can do less.

Chisamba I think we are pretty much describing the same thing I just don’t think of it as relaxation but rideable. The aids go through. But because I have to keep that inner energy in myself active for me it does not feel very relaxing! Now Joplin yes it’s a different world. Piedmont spoke of riding her mare and how she does not like to work hard. That is me too but I don’t have that with my WBs

[blob]

Interesting discussion around relaxation and tension.

Most of my past horses have been nervous, hotter types. And I too have a 'chill out' butt and have done well with these horses. It is my natural inclination to seek relaxation first and foremost. And in fact I often have to remind myself that I can/should ask for more oomph and push at times too. RP in the show ring is a good example here. I NEED relaxation first, but once I have it, I need to remember to push for more pop if I want to score well.

MM is an interesting case because between my own chill out butt and her relaxed nature, relaxation is never an issue. I had a clinician once tell me that with a horse like her who is so willing to relax fully at the drop of a pin that my job is to create positive tension in order to get the quality of work I want. He advised that I avoid doing 'free walk breaks' with her and instead always think of doing extended walk breaks and warm-up. That I should be looking to feel her back 'power up' rather than 'relax up'. I do not take his instruction 100% to heart, but partly because I just cannot ride that way even if I wanted to. BUT I do think about it often with her that with her my goal is not relaxation, but it is energy and with that energy I need to build some amount of positive tension. This type of thinking is something I could/would never do with RP (at least not where he is now) because it would likely turn him into a live wire and would frazzle him mentally.

[khall]

Exactly blob!! I rarely take hit the buckle walk breaks with Rip or Gaila. Too difficult to get them all back motivated. Keep it popping for them. For me it’s better to get in get your ride and get off. If you accomplish what you want in 20 minutes then get off.

My hotter horses or more goey horses not a problem. Working with these energy conservatives has become second nature to me now. It’s not my preferred MO but I know it well. That is why Joplin continues to be such a joy she is so different and ready to go to work but never a worrier or gets het up ( lovely southern saying) about much.

[Chisamba]

relaxation is such an inappropriate word. it seems like kicked back in the beach with a margarita .

I know what you mean. I suppose dressage relaxation is more like willingness without tension.

[blob]

that's a good point, Chisamba. Though I do think some horses DO need to kick back on the beach with a margarita type vibe!

I often think training is also about working on improving what is not naturally easy. I think about when I was in training as a gymnast. I was very flexible but not very strong/powerful. On our 'workout' days. The coach had me do a lot of strength building exercises, while other girls were led through lots of stretching stuff. In competition, yes my routines were built to favor my strengths, but training was all about trying to improve my weak spots.

Soft and relaxed is easy for MM, so we work on pop and oomph.
Energy is easy for RP, so we work on calm, steady, soft.

[khall]

Chisamba and blob yes!!! Though my OTTB g definitely needed relaxation! He was one hot tamale. A dream to ride when he was relaxed and listening but boy that took awhile to get him to understand relaxation under saddle. Not really my cup of tea either. Though I’ve certainly ridden the tie themselves in knots.

[Tanga]

Chisamba--Exactly. It doesn't matter what it is, you break it down and deal with it, starting with the biggest issue first.

I have had a lot of hot horses. My first GP mare I could put anyone on, but she was 3/4 Tb and could go, go go. Sometimes I would just gallop her up a big hill a couple of times to chill her out before working her. She would be la la la, and then sometimes just blow and be all up in the air. Quilla can be a lazy rent pony, but when you get her going, she can be very hot.

Quinn is the first really tense horse I've had. She's just like that. I used to think she was tight and needed more (leg, spur, forward, whatever) because of that. I was wrong. She is super, super sensitive even though she is very tight. I have to use much less on her. It's interesting the tenser and tighter she is, the more comments I get from people about how "light" she is. I rode under Debbie Ruel Rodriguez once and did very well and she came up while I was looking at the scores and told me she loved my horses and how she liked to see loose nosebands and no gapping mouths. On my test she commented that Quinn tried SO hard. That helped me. She used to ALWAYS "trip" in my extended trots and break into a canter. She was trying so much she couldn't keep up with her feet. So instead of pushing her forward, I think slow and literally say "whoa" through it, and I have taught all three horses to respond to "up" by lifting the front and sitting behind, not running as fast as they can. She hasn't tripped and broken at a show in awhile, and I was really looking forward to seeing how she would have done on Saturday with being able to see in the mirrors.

Yes, blob. That is the way to train. What is the weak area and make it better. With Quinn, she is a whiz at the movements. She did one tempis no issue the first time I asked her (while Quilla tied herself in a knot of whirling legs.) With Quinn my focus has to be all about the relaxation, flexion, and calm and happy.

[quinta]

Great discussion, folks! and timely. This has been the winter of lateral work for me and Autumn (addressing some longstanding crookedness on both of our parts). It's been physically and mentally challenging for her - overachieving personality combined with this-is-hard and I-don't-understand-what-you-want - and there was a lot of tension in our rides. In the past few weeks, she seems to be really getting it, and the tension has dramatically decreased. Today, we had one of our best rides yet and some lovely half pass moments.

In new pony (Nia) news, I went out on the weekend to hack to discover that the neighbours new and mostly feral hog was loose and running around the property, the guys were out trying to shoot it, and all the horses were . We decided to try a ride anyway, and little mare was foot perfect. I really love this little lady.

[demi]

I am enjoying the discussion on "relaxed compliance/willingness without tension"/ or whatever. I just posted videos on the "hard to sit trot" thread and the last vid shows what I am going to call nervous tension. It's interesting to read about the differences in our horses and how the tension/relaxation plays into how we adjust our training.

I push Rocky out of her comfort zone fairly regularly now, but I can't do it every ride. If I am careful about when and how much I push, she goes right back to happy camper when I let her.

[khall]

Blob your description of RP needing relaxation first but don’t forget to push them once you’ve reached relaxation to get the oomph.
I would like to add that you know you’ve got the relaxation when the horse needs a bit of push rather always feeling like you are riding the brake. That’s the rideable part to me. The horse allows us in and accepts the aids. Is it perfect? No of course not. But what we are doing is strung the pearls together (a Mark quote). So we work on all the individual parts of the training the forward the lateral the softness etc then as we progress we start stringing all those elements together.

[StraightForward]

Great discussion and food for thought! I just lunged Tesla tonight, but focused on keeping her energy up and not letting her walk and noodle about much, and got some better canter. It is helping to put her in side reins and push the trot out rather than giving her a ton of time to warm up into a "real' trot (not cantering her in side reins). I think tomorrow I'll try warming her up in the side reins before riding and see if it helps to get her a little more snappy and then go right to work when I get on.

[Moutaineer]

Potters now has shoes all round. He's made a new fan in my farrier as he was such an obliging boy to work on for the ages that it took to get a perfect fit on those poor damaged feet.

Ugh, those feet are sore and bruised, though. When I asked my farrier what I could do to help them, his answer was "don't ever let anyone trim his hooves this short again!" I'm just hoping and praying we haven't caused a flare up of anything more deep-seated--bring on the anti-inflammatories.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

The tension discussion is interesting. I'd say my new guy is a bit prone to tension at first, But then once he is relaxed he too needs to be powered up a bit.

It's starting to warm up so I'm anxious to start getting him into a program and really get going! I'm hoping to try some hoof boots soon. ideally I think I would like him in shoes but I think right now with the spring mud that we need to hold off.

Today we did ground work and then I took him around the whole property for a stroll. He was absolutely perfect and relaxed. But at the beginning of the session before I took him outside he spooked at a bird ha ha. I'm just always glad to see that he winds down fairly quickly.

I'm supposed to have a dressage lesson on Tuesday. I'm a little hesitant just because I haven't had the saddle fitter out. She comes on the 11th. But maybe we'll do some in hand lateral work with him, And maybe some really light under saddle work.

I'm really enjoying him. He's a funny guy but he's got really good mind!

[Chisamba]

The tension discussion is interesting. I'd say my new guy is a bit prone to tension at first, But then once he is relaxed he too needs to be powered up a bit.

isn't that ideal, a horse that is naturally forward, and needs to relax a bit, but is amenable to that push for
the hard work.

I mean dressage on an always push horse is exhausting, there is such a lot of work to look relaxed and easy knowing you have the reserve tank is superb

[khall]

Chisamba tell me about it!! Gaila you quit riding her and she just stops. You can go from canter to halt by quit riding. I like those who you put in the gait and they cruise with little reminder from the rider.

How I used to work on Rip’s reluctance to go forward was to ask lightly if I don’t get a response chase him off then back to light aids again. I don’t have to do this anymore but did for awhile. Now I’m wondering if I need to think about working on can we noodle around then go to work. Go back to hit the buckle type work then back to work. To address that inability Rip and Gaila have to ramp their energy back up after a break. I’m just so used to keeping that energy up riding them. Food for thought

[Ponichiwa]

Interesting discussion re: resistance/tension vs. relaxation. It's been top of my mind this week. The weather has (knock wood) been absolutely lovely; even rarer, my work has been surprisingly well-behaved. As a result, Queso has been getting a lot of riding time.

I've signed up for a schooling show and a clinic on back-to-back weekends--- and, unfortunately, in the "wrong" order for the sake of my scores-- which means not only has Q had to deal with more riding, but I've also brought more focus into my riding thanks to upcoming deadlines. Aiming for success at 2-3, which means I should be tabling the flying change conversation for later.

Instead, because I am a foolish person, I was ramping up expectations for the collected canter. Yes, you can canter actively behind (vs lope along pleasantly). Yes, you can stay on the bit, even in the counter canter. Oh no, there are now flying changes everywhere.

So, all of that is to say: you need some amount of boundary-pushing in order to improve. Q's baseline canter is pleasant, and easy to ride, but has no change in it at all. In order to get him to change consistently, I've got to ask for quite a bit more engagement and lift, which is hard for him (fitness, conformation, general attitude)-- and results in a fairly fragile-feeling canter that can break into all the flying changes in the world, apparently. Eventually this, too, shall pass, and we'll be moving onto our next challenge (pirouettes?). Til then, though, send positive thoughts. There are changes everywhere right when I need solid counter canter.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

The tension discussion is interesting. I'd say my new guy is a bit prone to tension at first, But then once he is relaxed he too needs to be powered up a bit.

isn't that ideal, a horse that is naturally forward, and needs to relax a bit, but is amenable to that push for
the hard work.

I mean dressage on an always push horse is exhausting, there is such a lot of work to look relaxed and easy knowing you have the reserve tank is superb

I think so! I suppose it depends on the rider too. I also have a "chill seat" rather than electric. I have friends with electric seats and we all can get very different rides out of the same horse!

But it works with a horse that tends to be little tense since I tend to be a little to low key. It's easy to balance each other out and meet in that fine middle!

[piedmontfields]

Ponichiwa, your situation with Queso sounds like why many pros don't show 2nd level but hold off until the changes are solid---because their horse will perform well beyond 2-3 in not too distant future. Have fun with the show and the clinic!

[blob]

Ponichiwa, I actually think a clinic after the show will be very useful! I'd be worried about a clinic just before a show unless it was someone I'd worked with a lot because sometimes a clinic can introduce new ideas or ways of working that take some time to set in. Sometimes right after a clinic things for me get a bit messy before they get much better! Also you can use your scores/comments to help focus what you want to work on!

Also, I am jealous of anyone with TOO many changes, ha!

Did some test riding this week, which I always need to remember to do more of. I need to be careful with MM because I'm getting sloppy with my corners and losing time/space to set up our canter HP in 3-3. I also need to work on our ToH. She does them well when schooling, but in the test, I think she anticipates or I get sloppy and we end up doing a lazy pivot with the inside leg not actually stepping.

With RP I need work on the canter lengthenings in 1-3. I need to be bolder in the forward and less ambitious in the collection (if I ask for too much he can break). In general our LYs off the right leg need to be better and our trot lengthenings need to be slower and more up hill. But those two I knew even without the full test.

[StraightForward]

Good lesson on Annabelle today! My instructor said she could see more elasticity and swing in Annabelle's back since our last lesson, maybe thanks to the cavaletti work. We just did basics working on engagement and throughness, especially in the canter, and keeping the engagement between the W/T/C transitions.

Tesla seems to be past her most recent stalling out protestations. The tiny bit of lunging in side reins seems to be helping. We are just putting cantering on the back burner for a few weeks. She wanted to show off her shoulder reach today.