*Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Tsavo
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*Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:02 am

Vet assessed my horse today for lameness and perennially weepy eye despite nothing found upon staining.

1. Lameness - Too ouchy on both fronts from no work for the ringbone and no shoes to assess the hind. Mincing away. LF is a 3. Blocked the front left ringbone pastern and the RF was graded as a 2 but he came completely sound on the left hind. He had me lunge him trot - canter - trot - canter - etc several times in both directions in addition to carefully examining the hinds during the exam. There is no issue at all, no soreness, no response to hoof testers, nothing high, nothing low, no positive response to flexions on the hinds (which are questionable on hinds BTW). I was shocked... would have bet money the LH had an issue. He said any lameness I saw on the left hind was due to his compensating for being sore on the LF from the ringbone.

2. Shoeing - Yes indeed this episode is related to pulling the shoes. It is no coincidence. Expensive lesson. My horse needs the support of shoes for the ringbone which explains why he went lame on the second day after removing the shoes. He is going into Morrison rockers. He actually recommended I also work with another vet who is more expert in dealing with ringbone and shoeing.

3. NPAs on the hinds - The PA on the RH which has been in negative territory (usually -4 degrees) for a decade or more is now near zero. I actually almost cried. Almost couldn't believe it. Almost fell to my knees when that radiograph popped on screen. He has been out of hind shoes for 1.5 years with no gluteal or back pain. He has finally adapted without the wedge pads, something we tried to get him to do years ago without success. This is a great demonstration of the power of no prayer whatsoever. I will post all his rads when I get them.

4. Eye - He had a pinpoint ulcer last year which has healed but the eye never stopped weeping. The reason is that the third eyelid had a cauliflower-like mass which he biopsied. He used two nerve blocks above the eye and cut a piece of the mass off. Lots of blood. I will know early next week what the deal is. He said it might be cancer though he has never seen a cancer on the third eyelid of a non-pink horse so that is somewhat of a relief. If not cancer it is likely some type of inflammatory reaction. If cancer he will need it removed at the clinic and have topical chemo.
Last edited by Tsavo on Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:15 am

Forgot to mention the main issue is high ringbone on the LF. The radiograph showed almost no space at that joint which indicates it might be autofusing. Once it fuses, there will be no pain. I didn't realize that joint can autofuse so I have some hope it might.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby musical comedy » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:32 pm

So why was he lame (2) on the right front? What is your plan now; to put shoes on and rehab again?

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:56 pm

RF has ringbone also. I am going to shoe and rehab. Glue on if necessary.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Chisamba » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:42 pm

Tsavo wrote:RF has ringbone also. I am going to shoe and rehab. Glue on if necessary.

I have had good luck with casting the hoof then putting nails into the cast

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:10 am

Chisamba wrote:
Tsavo wrote:RF has ringbone also. I am going to shoe and rehab. Glue on if necessary.

I have had good luck with casting the hoof then putting nails into the cast


Thanks for this suggestion but I don't know what you mean. Also, have you ever seen high ringbone autofuse? I am hoping for that.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Chisamba » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:00 am

if the hoof is not strong enough to hold nails, then the farrier can wrap the hoof in a casting material, it goes on like a bandage, and then nail the shoe into the cast, not the hoof wall.

I have not seen high ringbone autofuse, but i do not have a lot of experience with it, I have heard of injecting alcohol into the joint to promote fusion

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby khall » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:52 am

RF low or high ringbone or both? Yes high ringbone can fuse on it's own. Best to fuse by surgery (if needed) than alcohol injection which is extremely painful to the horse according to a couple of vets I know. It sounds like though he has quite a bit going on in there. Shoes may help some but does the vet think he will come totally sound to do the work you were doing?

BTDT with front feet lameness causing compensatory lameness. Thankfully mine was from crappy shoeing and out of balance when his feet came right 8 months later no other lameness was detected.

Jingles for good news on the eye!

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:23 am

He has high and low on both but L >R and high > low.

The vet dissuaded me from fusing due to the long lay up associated with it. I am still considering fusion though because I am confident I can rehab him. He is still athletic enough. He advocates not trying to fuse him but keeping him in work which he characterizes only as "no small circles." So I do most other things.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby kande50 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:29 am

If the vet said no small circles I would think that would include any work in which the joints were moving in the same way they would on small circles.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:32 pm

Squamous cell carcinoma. Arranging a clinic visit to remove the third eyelid. Poor boy. :-(

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:42 pm

Sorry to hear that, Tsavo.

As far as alcohol fusion of the pastern for ringbone goes, yes, I have had it done to a horse, no it's not particularly painful (there are other forms of chemical fusion which are pretty brutal, and wouldn't be on my list of things to do to an animal, but this was OK--a bit sore for a couple of days, but not awful and not longstanding pain,) but don't expect it to return the horse to any form of dressage "usefulness." You are fusing a joint that had motion in it before, and it does change the gait, therefore putting stresses on different parts of the body. It took my old boy from "we are going to have to put him down," to "gimpy but happy pasture pet." Which was all I wanted to achieve.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:45 am

Thanks Mountaineer.

Hmmm. I was under the impression it is like hocks...only a few degrees of movement possible so only a few degrees of movement lost. Is that wrong?

My horse moves comfortably around the pasture now. I would be doing it to keep him comfortable in work.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:12 pm

My horse will have the third eyelid removed Tuesday morning. If they can get clean edges he won't need topical chemo. I will try to photograph the procedure and the excised eyelid to show how big the tumor was. The vet said it is moderate in size but looking around on the Web I think it is on the large side and the vet was sparing me.
Last edited by Tsavo on Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:42 pm

Fingers crossed for your fellow. Let us know how it goes.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby khall » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:06 pm

Jingles that all goes well with the surgery.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:51 pm

Thanks PF and khall.

Curiously the eye is not weeping as much. Just removing the biopsy seems to have helped that.

If it goes like the biopsy, there will be no pain during the procedure. But I bet he hurt loads after and will again after the removal. I am going to ask about getting some meaningful pain relief.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tuddy » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:02 pm

Good luck with surgery!

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:00 am

Thanks Tuddy. Well it looked to me like the entire eyelid was involved. In my opinion, not only was there no hope of a clean margin but I thought it seemed like the cancer may not have been limited to the eyelid. But we have to wait for the path report. I am pretty sure he is going to say I need to do the topical chemo.

The resected piece does not resemble an eyelid. The yellow part is fat and not tumor. Most of the rest is tumor I think.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:00 am

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:47 am

I asked if the high ringbone joint can fuse on its own and he said yes. I asked how many degrees of ROM he would lose and the answer was none. That joint does not move. Knowing this, if we can isolate the problem to the high ringbone I will likely pursue fusion.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tuddy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:09 pm

Thanks for the report! Hope he heals up quick for you!

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Chisamba » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:21 pm

Jingling that he recovers well. Poor horsey

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Abby Kogler » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:53 pm

Thanks for sharing the photos. Hope he does well and his pain is manageable.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby khall » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:56 pm

Wow that was involved. I've not seen this particular surgery before. Hope your guy comes through it fine and within margins.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:57 am

khall wrote:Wow that was involved. I've not seen this particular surgery before. Hope your guy comes through it fine and within margins.


Thanks. I will predict there are no margins and possibly involvement of other structures. That piece of tissue does not even resemble a third eyelid.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:16 pm

Hope recovery is going well. That was quite the tumor.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:31 pm

Thanks PF. As I was putting meds into the eye this morning I think I saw some more tissue that looked like tumor. I expect my vet to call today about the path and I am going to mention it. We may need a lot of chemo here.

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:32 pm

Tuddy wrote:Thanks for the report! Hope he heals up quick for you!


Thanks Tuddy

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Re: Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:33 pm

Chisamba wrote:Jingling that he recovers well. Poor horsey


Thanks Chisamba. Hoping to hear today.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:01 am

Clean margins but we have to watch him. So relieved! My vet is a superstar getting clean margins on that thing.

I don't understand at least half that report and I missed the vet's call. But pretty sure my horse is in the clear.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby khall » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:39 am

That's great Tsavo that he was able to get clean margins. Hope your guy will stay squamous cell clear now!

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:26 pm

I can translate this for you :)
Basically they are talking about the different cell types and how far they went into the surrounding tissue layers

Looks like a good prognosis YAY

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:10 pm

Tanks khall. And thanks ryeissa. That is some serious biological mumbo jumbo. Looking at hat specimen, I cannot imagine where they found a margin that was 1.2 cm! There is a reason I didn't go into bio! LOL.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:49 am

Despite the clean margins, the cancer returned and I opted to have the eye removed. My horse adapted in what seemed like hours and not days. I was not offered the option of a prosthesis for some reason though I would have chosen it.

So jealous were the cancer gods of Pete's beauty that they stole his eye. But he remained more beautiful than them.


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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:03 pm

Pete is still and always will be beautiful and I am glad that he adjusted well.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:20 pm

Yes, Pete is still totally handsome. Glad he fared well....and sounds like you did, too.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Flight » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:01 pm

Sorry that it returned :( Glad he is adapting quickly, he is beautiful :)

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:21 am

piedmontfields wrote:Yes, Pete is still totally handsome. Glad he fared well....and sounds like you did, too.


Thanks PF. In hindsight, I worried too much about this. So amazing how he coped. I see what he does now... he has 180 from the left eye and just has to turn his head a bit to get some of what is on the right. Then turn the other way and get some more. He does not act like there is much different.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:26 am

Flight wrote:Sorry that it returned :( Glad he is adapting quickly, he is beautiful :)


I suspect it is the same cancer that occurred in another area. There were other horses at the hospital there for eye cancer so it must not be that rare. Rarer in a black-skinned horse but not rare. I think he got a ton of sun living in Canada for the first 9 years of his life. High latitude. Snow reflectance. Etc.

I am vetting a chestnut at the end of the month. Not expecting this again in another horse.

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Chisamba » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:58 am

I had a lovely blind horse that I rode to 4th level. They ride well and as a rider you just have to be mindful of being their seeing eye. But I don't remember if your handsome Pete us sound.

Best wishes.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:51 am

Chisamba wrote:I had a lovely blind horse that I rode to 4th level. They ride well and as a rider you just have to be mindful of being their seeing eye. But I don't remember if your handsome Pete us sound.

Best wishes.


I finally retired Pete a second time and for good due to ringbone. I had hope for autofusion but it didn't happen. He is sound on some days trotting around the pasture but I force myself to ignore that. :-)

As with your experience, he would be completely rideable with one eye if sound. He doesn't seem to mind having one eye. It's really amazing.

Did your horse have a prosthesis? When I read that some horses are given those, I had to fight some bitterness for not being offered one. There is a deep cavity there that he likes me to rub for him. Maybe there is a veterinary reason he could not have one. I decided not to ask because that ship has sailed and it is better to move on. I just wanted him to move past this which is why I opted for removal instead of treatment which may not have been successful. He would have hated that worse than losing the eye.

Thanks.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Chisamba » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:10 pm

Caper lost his vision due to optic nerve damage after being flipped in a bitting rig before I got him. So his eye was still there, it didn't need to be removed.

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby khall » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:47 am

Tsavo I had a mare who lost her left eye. I did not opt for the prothesis had heard there can be issues with them. The sunken socket was not pretty but she also adapted without much issue. She preferred me to lead her on her blind side. Only issue I ever had with her was she got blindsided (literally) by one of the mares she was turned out with, ended up with nasty gash on her RH that required sutures. She was usually very aware and careful about other horses tried hard to keep herself out of trouble. I rode her for a bit with just one eye, but did end up retiring her because of DJD which ultimately cost her her life. Bad knees with only 30% ROM from not so straight legs and a stifle injury to one hind.

Glad your guy is handling the enucleation well. Did you ever find you another horse?

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Re: *Add histopath report... Vet visit... one surprise after the next. Report and photos added

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:20 pm

Hi khall.

I am vetting a horse at the end of the month. There is some chance the horse will fail out on radiography but I have high hopes she won't.


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