New year, new goals! Jan/Feb 2020

[Chisamba]

So, by absolute coincidence I saw a photo on Facebook that illustrates my problem. I am not sharing the photo, but I will describe it. The horse was intermediate A winner, in the awards ceremony, going forward, poll high nose ahead. Overall a pleasing picture with two minor exceptions. The horses hocks were behind, not stepping under. I paid close attention, not to be critical, but the one picture I have of me riding Sunstorm in passage, his hocks are behind, pushing not carrying, so I really looked at the picture for clues and it quickly was obvious that despite the nose being out, the base of the neck was compressed and the whole neck was held much shorter than the hind end. So I feel like it confirms my attempt, at this, my simple 3rd level training, to get the horse to extend the whole neck forward, not simply the gullet and poll.

Sorry if I'm being boring.

[exvet]

So, by absolute coincidence I saw a photo on Facebook that illustrates my problem. I am not sharing the photo, but I will describe it. The horse was intermediate A winner, in the awards ceremony, going forward, poll high nose ahead. Overall a pleasing picture with two minor exceptions. The horses hocks were behind, not stepping under. I paid close attention, not to be critical, but the one picture I have of me riding Sunstorm in passage, his hocks are behind, pushing not carrying, so I really looked at the picture for clues and it quickly was obvious that despite the nose being out, the base of the neck was compressed and the whole neck was held much shorter than the hind end. So I feel like it confirms my attempt, at this, my simple 3rd level training, to get the horse to extend the whole neck forward, not simply the gullet and poll.

Sorry if I'm being boring.

Please don't apologize. This is exactly the issue that I have to be ever aware of and that is at the lower levels as well. This is the nature of a welsh cob to barrel through with the base of the neck and chest. They can have extremely flashy trots all the while leaving the caboose trailing way behind, the more speed the longer and more steam the train gets LOL. I was watching the video clips of my rides in the show yesterday. Fortunately Junior doesn't trail his hind end way out behind but with our focus on second level THIS concept you describe must be our focus - engagement of the hind end and lifting up through the withers. He knows all the movements at second level. He's a willing participant; but, now I have to really buckle down and teach him how to use his body properly. Paula K has given me some could reminders on how I need to look at that with my position coupled with slowing Junior's tempo back down at the trot. Of course a million and one transitions also helps I have my homework to do!

[Dresseur]

Chisamba, I find this fascinating, so please keep sharing. I think it's easy for people to focus on one thing at a time and forget the overall picture. Right now, necks and poll placement are the things to watch for with the anti-rollkur sentiment still running incredibly high. However, horses are individuals and some need to be ridden a little higher or a little rounder or whatever in order to access the hinds. For instance, there is a DHH in training right now - he is HUGE, he has a typical flatish croup and would love to have his hind end cycle out behind him with his head sky high. So, he gets longed a bit lower and ridden a bit lower - over the year and a half that he's been started under saddle, he can now be ridden more uphill and his hind end stays under and his canter is now knit together instead of 4 legs going every which way. I will firmly maintain, in fact, I would bet my salary on the notion that had he been in training with someone who would have insisted on open throat latch, poll high, his canter would never have developed and he would have no practical for dressage use of his hind end. With Miro, she went after the hind end in a way that I couldn't feel/execute and the difference in him is night and day. Does he still want to collapse a bit, sure, but overall, he's now up in the shoulder and more importantly - the base of the neck. With Andrea, he's a bit longer in the neck and more open, and that's the overall goal - but I wasn't going to get there the way I was doing things

And, because I think this is interesting, I'll share pics.
Pic on the far right is now. The middle and left pic is right before he got injured. The middle pic is the closest I could find to that exact moment in time, so sorry for the crop - it's all I had. But you can see the difference in the neck shape, the balance and how uphill it is.

trot.jpg (98.65 KiB) Viewed 27000 times

For the canter, please excuse my position in the recent ones on the middle and right - that's where you can tell how weak I am.
But again, in the left photo, you can see the difference in the bearing and neck shape. (the far left and far right are pretty much exactly the same moment in time. Ideally, I'd like him a touch more open in the neck in the canter still, but I find this to be very interesting. What is funny is that he looks to be against my hand in the far right pic, but he's very light in the canter - I think that illusion is because of my position right now.

canter.jpg (84.82 KiB) Viewed 27000 times

And, in a very demoralizing way, he looks way better with Andrea on

[Flight]

That is what I noticed in your recent pics of Miro, Dressuer, and what really started this conversation. I saw that he is sooo nicely up through that base of the neck/sternum etc. I mean, he's always looked uphill, never ever downhill but it's the next level.

Might be a bit off the topic, but similar - I struggle with Norsey lifting through his withers, he gets very flat over the topline and out behind with the hind legs and then he tries to to go round by closing up that top end of his neck and getting behind the bit. What I have learned lately was how to address that - I used to chuck the reins at him and push him on to try and drive his neck back out, and people would say "oh it will come out when he gets stronger" well yes but he's 9 now and built like a brick sh%thouse so holding a loose rein and praying wasn't working.
So with him, I now directly address that curling or closing of the gullet and then work on the other stuff.

[blob]

Flight, it's always so helpful and interesting for me to hear about your work with Norsey. I think in some ways he and MM are quite similar, but it's also interesting to hear their differences. And this conversation re: neck/gullet is useful and interesting for both my horses at this stage.

MM does not typically get behind the bit, she is fairly uncomplicated in her contact, however I often struggle with finding the right place for her. When she is up higher and in the third level frame she should be, I often don't feel like I have control/suppleness through the base of her neck and her shoulder. When I try to soften her, she ends up in a lower frame--more like a first level or even training level frame. My trainer has been on me to stop 'suppling her down' and instead trust more that I have more control fo the shoulders than I think I do. A lot of this, I think, is me getting used to riding a horse that is progressing up beyond first/second level.

For the most part since i've had him RP has been a horse that keeps a feel in the contact--meaning, while he might be inconsistent he used to never duck behind. But he is one that could/would shorten his neck and close his gullet easily and quickly if i went to a shorter rein. Now as he's figuring things out, things have chagned a bit. When I feel his back really come up, he also gets behind the contact and slows down a bit. If I add leg, he'll keep the forward momentum going, but he is still a bit behind my contact. To me, this feels ok right now. I think in order to really use his back he is having to re-figure his balance find strength in differnet ways. So, like Chisamba said, closing his neck is helping him find a 'strong position' right now. I think the tricky thing for me will be knowing when this is ok and part of the process and when I need to start demanding more/different so it doesn't become a habit.

[Sue B]

Here's a picture of the training barrel we used. We added astroturf and a jumping saddle to it. Two people were at the back making it go up and down.

83808504_2625553937560063_8560701915007025152_o.jpg (155.94 KiB) Viewed 26907 times

[Chisamba]

Questions I ask myself about my connection.

Can I lengthen the neck in a downward transition, can I lengthen the neck in half pass. Can my horse lengthen from the base if the neck or is it just poking its nose out.

Kimba has boring gaits. No one looks at her and says, wow what a flashy mover. I have to improve her quality. Unlike those flashy movers who can get hicks out behind and loose parity and still score big because their knees break above vertical

[blob]

Can I lengthen the neck in a downward transition, can I lengthen the neck in half pass. Can my horse lengthen from the base if the neck or is it just poking its nose out.

Great and useful tests--eager to play around with this. I found a few months ago that even though MM is great with a trot stretch, when I asked the same thing in the canter--she was happy to stretch down, but she would break/have trouble maintaining clear tempo.

[Chisamba]

Sue B what did you use that for?

[Chisamba]

i broke down and decided to share my latest photo of Caliburn, the sword face, yes i know he is slightly behind the vertical, and yes his poll is a bit below the crest, but it is such a dramatic improvement over his camel neck hollow back posture, and he is working happily through the shoulder and base of the neck, illustrated by the fact that his back is filled in behind the saddle. anyway, i think he is happier, what a character though!

[heddylamar]

i broke down and decided to share my latest photo of Caliburn, the sword face, yes i know he is slightly behind the vertical, and yes his poll is a bit below the crest, but it is such a dramatic improvement over his camel neck hollow back posture, and he is working happily through the shoulder and base of the neck, illustrated by the fact that his back is filled in behind the saddle. anyway, i think he is happier, what a character though!

WOW!!!! What a change! Caliburn looks fabulous! He's got muscle, and a butt

And, yes, the overstretch/BTV is a perfectly valid in-between phase when you're teaching a horse to lift their back. Some horses need longer like that than others. When we got my old eventer, she was so distrusting of contact she went everywhere BTV once I got her to stretch her topline. It took 2 or 3 years and a lot of fat rubber snaffles (that she chewed through in her nervousness) before she trusted me not to jab her in the mouth.

[piedmontfields]

That is quite the transformation with Caliburn! Thanks for sharing and for the inspiration.

I've been having some really great rides lately--probably because you all are sharing very helpful reminders and insights.

A very simple exercise we did last night where we played with shoulder and neck position was *posting trot* shoulder in to renvers around the large arena (yes, I do long stretches of lateral work). When I do this work sitting, it can get be hard to get the same consistent thrust. We were able to get in medium trot neighborhood with power and still have nice positioning, actual bending of mare's short body, and nice feeling. The quality came and went as we worked, but I was really impressed by my mare's ability---I did not see that coming, as my mare is not a huge mover at all.

[Sue B]

Chisamba, we used it to work on our position. For "beginner" riders, it was to teach them how to ride out a small buck or rear and go over a low jump like in a grid. For more advanced riders, we "jumped" larger fences, worked on maintaining a 2-point through out. I personally worked on my bugaboo, going up and down bank fences. Then we all did a "grid" of 5 fences holding a cup of water in each hand.

My friend had so much fun that her son is welding her a similar contraption for home use. For her, it identified how weak her core has gotten lately, for me it identified how noisy my hands are when they don't have a mane or neck strap to hold and I'm not allowed to shove them forward over the jump. Gotta learn to be quieter--oh, and I anticipate like crazy but I already knew that. With the right springs and the right people working the contraption, I think we could teach people to sit the trot and stuff like that as well.

[khall]

Looks like fun SueB
Chisamba awesome job with Caliburn. You do a wonderful job of turning horses around.

Quick pop in, still not riding right now. Weather has been so wet and we have put my dad in hospice now. It's been a roller coaster.

Wanted to chime in on contact/head position that Chisamba was talking about. I think we have to do what works for each horse and they will require different approaches for their individual conformation. With Rip I had to address him getting too deep/rolled up and ask him to come up and out of the base of the neck with the reins in order for him to get the idea so he could sit better behind. When I started the half step work initially we struggled. Then I had the idea of asking with light contact for him to come up and out and it was a light bulb moment for Rip. I had to continue to do that for awhile but now he automatically stays more up out of the base of the neck these days. In fact the last Cedar clinic in November she commented on just that. His conformation though is very strong through the loin but heavy in the shoulders and he needed to be quicker with the hind legs. This work has helped him tremendously, if I can every get back to it!

Stay dry and hope for better weather for you all! Happy riding:)

[exvet]

I had a lesson today that focused entirely on getting Junior into the contact, engaging the hind end and coming over the back at all 3 gaits. The key for my little fire engine/fire plug was to slow the momentum down significantly and demand perfect transitions at all times. I would not accept a transition that didn't start out in the correct contact and keep it all the way through......it was a tedious lesson but fun each time he answered correctly. I simply decided that it is time to ride and work Junior like a real second level horse! He's learned how to power up within himself without getting faster at the canter and now the demands are there at the walk and trot too. He's not all that keen on it but his willingness to try is winning out, thankfully. I've decided to enter a recognized show in March to see if we can improve the quality of all 3 gaits over the next 30 days to the point that I can watch the video and see his hind feet landing in my hands every stride - or- at least ride for that feeling and see if it makes a difference in the overall impression.

[StraightForward]

Caliburn looks like a totally different horse; really nice!

Sue, that looks like fun. Would love to try it some time.

Annabelle had a bit of a rough patch on Wednesday. I think she is body sore now that we're actually cantering and I'm asking for a little more "real" trot, so I put her back on Methocarbamol the past two days to see if it made her feel better. Today we actually got to ride outside, though the footing was lumpy and we had to stick to walk and trot. However, I was walking on a loose rein and some geese took off and I ended up hitting the dirt after about 3 rears in which I couldn't seem to gather up my reins and decided I did not want to stick around if she bolted. I told the BO it was bound to happen sooner or later, and at least I didn't get hurt. I got back on and trotted her around both directions (while keeping an eye on the ^%*! geese!) so we could end on a good note. I think she was kind of shocked as I've never come off her before. Hoping we can start riding outside more consistently as the arena is much bigger and has a bit of slope that makes her work her rear end more. We are both sick of the little indoor (where the footing is nearly rock hard now).

[exvet]

Glad you're alright StraightForward. I too probably would have bailed if I thought a bolt was coming. Hope your weather improves soon so you can get out and have more pleasant rides.

[StraightForward]

WE CANTERED OUTSIDE THIS MORNING!! I lunged first and saw a few of her little plant, rear, leap maneuvers, and didn't feel so bad about not sticking with a threepeat of those. I shortened my stirrups and kept a close eye on the bird situation, ha.

Some precip is building this weekend, then we're supposed to see some temps in the low 20's for a few days, so fingers crossed they get the poor old farm tractor working and drag the indoor today (they did just enough of the outdoor to make a safe track for cantering, then it broke down ).

[heddylamar]

Ouch, Straightforward! Hitting the ground is never fun. Even less so when the ground is cold and hard

[Chisamba]

glad you got your canter in Straighforward

[Aleuronx]

Oof, we had a weekend. Young horses are simultaneously super rewarding and completely unfun at the same time. We've been struggling as of late and with my trainer up from Florida for lessons I figured we might as well get some help.

As it goes with young horses she did not prove me wrong and was in absolute rare form. I was less of a dressage rider more of a cowgirl. Impressed a lot of the clinic auditors for all the wrong reasons, but I'm an amateur nobody so don't rightly care. I hesitate to share this video that friend was taking of her horse in our lesson but good grief if I'm going to get clocked in the face and get it caught on video I might as well!!

https://youtu.be/mw_oVEPcGgU

Long story short we ended up in a draw rein on the right side only, which is the side that she hardens/bulges out with. It made me think of you Exvet. It was certainly not my first choice but made sense for it's purpose. Kept looser than my contact at all times but when tantrums occurred it helped me correct her quicker and get back moving forward. A temporary assist and we'll see if we can get over this young horse moment.

I'm thankfully fine, thought for sure was going to have a bloody nose but rode by the mirrors and checked, nope. No black eye either but will likely be replacing helmet and I believe that's what the smack noise was.

The only good news is that she is learning how to smile for a treat. So at least one of my goals will be met this cycle. Ugh.

[piedmontfields]

Ow, that's quite a clocking, A...x! Weird video to have, but also instructional :-0 Very reasonable to me that you are using a tool (draw rein) to help get through this and stay safe. Glad you are okay.

SF, glad the meeting with the earth was not bad and cantering proceeded without issue the next day!

[Manni01]

this is really a nice productive thread! The video is very impressive! young horses are always good for a surprise....

Ok I think will participate. Right now I have 2 horses, both homebred, one 11 and one 6 years they are half sisters.... I did get the first 2 scores of my Silver with my 11 year old but found out that I would never make it to PSG because a lot of basics are missing. So I stopped showing a year ago and have been working on my basics since... Its a bumpy road, but slowly I start to see the light....
I got a new trainer in November as well as the possibility to get a lot of lessons from that trainer... And that really bumped us up... My mare is very dominant and also very smart.
I think she knows me better than I know her and she can make me do whatever she wants me to..
In the past we had an agreement... I let her do what she wanted and she carried me through the tests... It was a big mistake because now she has melt downs whenever I tell her what to do... But it is getting so much better..

So this weekend I was brave and rode in a clinic with another clinician who does not really know all our problems...

Because of all the great work with my Hometrainer, we started very strong...
I think this clinician thought he could fix the remaining problems very easy.... and of course he picked our weakest point... (Canter trot transitions....). we can do 2 or 3 without any problems now, thanks to my home trainer, but if I do more then that she gets extremely hot and tense.... So we started strong and everything felt good, and then this clinician thought he would really make her work and told me to circle around hin. and do trot canter transitions... We did and I felt how she got hotter and more tense... But he didn't stop and yelled at both of us...It was really horrible in the end she was barely able to trot anymore and he got extremely mad....
Somebody warned me about this trainer and I thought the warning was nonsense, but I think he thought it was an easy fix, and ignored everything else... It was really a waste because if he would have chosen to stop after the strong part of the lesson, it would have been a great lesson for both of us...
I learned my lesson and will not lesson with him again..
https://youtu.be/XM3I87Di3H0
This is her in a lesson with my trainer... that's the first 5 min of the warm up so not much to see, we worked a lot on our contact and the correct use of my legs.. I know that she needs to become more active from behind.....

And about my 6 year old, she is really a doll....Always in a great mood, never bothered by anything and she has fun everytime I ride her...
My trainer loves her and thinks she will be amazing... He fixed some very minor problems and since then she is improving like crazy...
She has a gorgeous flowing movement through her whole body so it is a bit like not even touching the ground when I ride her..
This is a very old video of her, sorry I don't have a new one..
https://youtu.be/Vb8DPyftfjU

[Sue B]

Sorry for your clinic Manni01 but hopefully lesson learned. I am generally open to trying almost anything (provided it does not harm the horse or his confidence) once or twice to see if it will help with a "problem", but I also have zero problem declining to do something that is clearly not working or causing the horse to escalate. Sometimes, the clinician cannot see what you are feeling--provided there isn't an ego thing going on, most clinicans will listen to your feedback and move on. Those that don't do not need to be teaching you. Politely excuse yourself and chalk it up to experience. Thus far, there is only one clinician I can think of that I will, under no circumstances, ride for--whether at a clinic or a show.

I am now riding a whole once-a-week, not much but better than not at all. Hopefully trimmer will be out soon to give them a pedicure. Both boys have the Spring Sillies but they are still a joy to ride. I can't wait to start jumping Tio again after doing the barrel thing but it rained a bunch yesterday and then froze hard. Uggh

[blob]

glad you are ok and had a good ride after, Straightforward!

Aleuronx--oof, hope you are ok! something like that can really hit you in the face/head hard! And yes, when there is an issue of someone getting hurt--I think using draw rein or martingale makes a lot of sense!

Thanks for sharing Caliburn's progress, Chisamba. It's so interesting to watch his progress. His topline has certainly improved/changed. And I'll be curious to see how his body will look after even more time.

I'm back after 2 weeks away for work and have been able to put 2 rides in on each of mine. First ride with MM was predictably a bit rusty--I was rusty, she was a tad stiff, but by the second ride we felt much more in sync and she felt really nice. She got her vaccines today, however, which always makes her very sore for a week+ so we are likely without much real riding work for the next week. it would have been nice if her sore days overlapped with my being out of town. But I'm also glad I'm here to monitor and make sure nothing goes wrong.

RP's rides back have been interesting. I think he's lost quite a bit of mental fitness/focus. So, getting him back into a riding routine will take a few more rides. Nothing terrible or extreme, just taking longer than normal in the warm-up to get him focused and in the zone. Yesterday, I ended up dismounting and lunging him some before getting back on. Not because he was overly hot or being silly, but because his focus was so all over the place it was hard to get him forward and through. In general he's a horse where I truly don't really know yet what i'm going to get when I get on.

[Moutaineer]

Laddie still lame, leg still fat and side of hock still quite sore to the touch, apparently. Vet again on Thursday. Ugh. Poor guy. I'm worried we have a hairline fracture going on, but I guess it could be a bone bruise.

[exvet]

My coach returned from Florida just before the recognized show. We discussed what occurred during the Heather Blitz clinic and she observed my two tests at the show. I respect the choice to use draw reins though I still choose not to do so in my case. Fortunately Junior does not have any tendency to flip his head though I've ridden a mare who did resort to that reaction when highly stressed (his mother). I have in the past opted to use specific training aids (german martingale as an example) when and where I thought it was appropriate (in the case of one of my former stallions not Junior's sire btw). I've had two horses flip over on top of me in my life time. The first time I suffered a concussion despite helmet. The second time I fractured my pelvis. That was 29 years ago. I have since not had a similar incident. Junior has reared and though I have never felt intimidated or frightened by it in the least I do not want to confirm this type of response and make it a habit which I'm afraid the use of draw reins just might do. Long story, short, my coach believes, especially after the lesson, we had on Friday post clinic and show, that I can work through our issues without the use of draw reins.

Jingles Mountaineer, keeping fingers crossed that it's just a severe bruise/not fracture.

[scruffy the cat]

this is really a nice productive thread! The video is very impressive! young horses are always good for a surprise....

Ok I think will participate. Right now I have 2 horses, both homebred, one 11 and one 6 years they are half sisters.... I did get the first 2 scores of my Silver with my 11 year old but found out that I would never make it to PSG because a lot of basics are missing. So I stopped showing a year ago and have been working on my basics since... Its a bumpy road, but slowly I start to see the light....
I got a new trainer in November as well as the possibility to get a lot of lessons from that trainer... And that really bumped us up... My mare is very dominant and also very smart.
.....

@Manni01, I'd love to hear more about those trouble spots with your 11 year old and what basics you have had to revisit if you felt up to sharing.

[Tanga]

I hope Manni chimes in and tells you. Since moving back to Germany she has had amazing access to so many great teachers. I am so jealous!

[Kyra's Mom]

Well, I am following along with everyone's trials and tribulations.

Me...I haven't done squat all winter. Like Khall, I have been very busy with elder care...Mother and her equally old dog. The dog has been the real problem but Mom has trouble taking care of her and for sure can't pick her up. So I spend about 1/2 my day over there. We are going to give her another week before deciding if she has to cross the bridge (the dog) .

I have done some in-hand and lunging work this week. I am quite amazed and happy with her self-carriage. She is just so out of shape...as is her owner...so our road back is going to be slow. I have gained weight in the last month and I don't feel I am even fair to her to get on her so for now will continue ground work for her and Susan work for me;) . I might spring for some body work for her to work out all the boo-boos from slipping and sliding through winter. She had started doing more cross cantering and wanting to only go to the left when she was at liberty. She has looked quite good on-line but a little adjustment might just be the ticket.

I will continue to follow along...many jingles to all those who need them and happy riding to those than can...carry on.

Susan

[Manni01]

this is really a nice productive thread! The video is very impressive! young horses are always good for a surprise....

Ok I think will participate. Right now I have 2 horses, both homebred, one 11 and one 6 years they are half sisters.... I did get the first 2 scores of my Silver with my 11 year old but found out that I would never make it to PSG because a lot of basics are missing. So I stopped showing a year ago and have been working on my basics since... Its a bumpy road, but slowly I start to see the light....
I got a new trainer in November as well as the possibility to get a lot of lessons from that trainer... And that really bumped us up... My mare is very dominant and also very smart.
.....

@Manni01, I'd love to hear more about those trouble spots with your 11 year old and what basics you have had to revisit if you felt up to sharing.

Scruffy the cat, I will try to explain, although it is really easy and basic what we have working on... My mare is pretty tall and dominant and she was a jumper in the past with my husband and son.. so her idea is that she knows it all and she can do it...

And I underestimated the problem because I wanted to move up the levels. so she and myself had an agreement ( more or less). We would do the tests, which of course she knew very soon by heart because she is smart.
But she would kind of do them her way. It was kind of impressive, I still can’t believe that we got 7,5 for changes which she did mainly herself..
We got 2 scores in the 60s in 4th level for my silver with this system..
Of course I wasn’t able to get much higher scores and the judges always complained about her not being supple..
I kind of thought that I wanted to get my scores and then change the system... Just didn’t want to risk not to get my scores by pissing her off...
So after I got the scores I stopped showing and tried to do things my way... As I expected that was really tricky... She had huge meltdowns and did not agree with this at all. In fact I stopped riding movements as well because I did not want to give her the chance to do them her way...
I think a big turning point came when I had an accident and couldn’t ride for a couple of months... During that time, my son basically only lunged her... I think he is really talented And I am still sad that he stopped riding.. He simply did a routine and made her go over her back without compromise...
so when I started to ride again, I was very pleased about her new way of going.. At the same time I switched to a new trainer. He was amazing because he helped me in 2 ways..
First he helped me to find ways to ride through her meltdowns...
Now I have a recipe for each critical situation we might have... The best thing is that she knows it too. So whenever she gets pissed, I simply turn on a volte and keep her on this volte with a nice quiet and ignoring seat until she gives up... And she gives up much faster now...
Second he he really supervised my aids closely... which means he told me when to keep my outer rein steady and ride a lot with my inner leg , but he also told me when to let her carry herself... It’s not only about the correct aids it’s also about how much and when you use them... She needs to be able to have enough freedom in the front to move through her body, but I need to set her limits if she wants to change up things..
By now she is much more tolerant regarding my aids.. she moves through her body. Now we will start to work on carrying moreweight with her hind legs and doing the movements again..
The nice thing is that she can do all the movement already so I am much looking forward to do them my way in the future..

And the basics is simply to ride her with my inner leg into my outer rein to get this flowing movement.. The trick is to do the right amount of everything at the right time....

[exvet]

Manni, I found your second point about the not just being able to use the correct aids but the how much and when, to be critical for a horse to truly understand and accept the point being made. Today I had a lesson that was really much to do about that. We went for an hour teaching Junior to not only accept my leg pressure (full draping leg) and to reach into the bridle, lengthening his neck and reaching completely through over his back when I applied both legs but to do so with a softness and less tension/stiffening like he often has done so that when he did it he was totally supple. It was amazing but the trick was to know how much pressure to maintain and to be able to wait it out and reward with a softening/light release as soon as he came through with the softness I wanted. We did it in both directions multiple times w-t-c and then we took it into the lateral work. It was amazing how much swing and crossover he was able to achieve once he truly softened. Of course this is what it's supposed to be but I don't think Junior or I totally realized what he's physically capable of until we really rode it out and did a lot of rinse and repeat. It was so helpful that my coach/instructor was on the ground telling me to wait it out, here it comes, keep with the leg, don't release, not yet, not yet.... and so on. I can't wait for our next ride to try this out again but to be able to use my leg to slow the horse's tempo and soften into the bridle in this way (as opposed to the little steam engine that could plowing through his sternum and under neck forward) losing all the tension opens up a whole new dimension. We had our best transitions EVER because all the while we also were keeping him crisp to the request to move up into the next gait but to do so without bracing or tensing up.....so cool.

[Manni01]

Manni, I found your second point about the not just being able to use the correct aids but the how much and when, to be critical for a horse to truly understand and accept the point being made. Today I had a lesson that was really much to do about that. We went for an hour teaching Junior to not only accept my leg pressure (full draping leg) and to reach into the bridle, lengthening his neck and reaching completely through over his back when I applied both legs but to do so with a softness and less tension/stiffening like he often has done so that when he did it he was totally supple. It was amazing but the trick was to know how much pressure to maintain and to be able to wait it out and reward with a softening/light release as soon as he came through with the softness I wanted. We did it in both directions multiple times w-t-c and then we took it into the lateral work. It was amazing how much swing and crossover he was able to achieve once he truly softened. Of course this is what it's supposed to be but I don't think Junior or I totally realized what he's physically capable of until we really rode it out and did a lot of rinse and repeat. It was so helpful that my coach/instructor was on the ground telling me to wait it out, here it comes, keep with the leg, don't release, not yet, not yet.... and so on. I can't wait for our next ride to try this out again but to be able to use my leg to slow the horse's tempo and soften into the bridle in this way (as opposed to the little steam engine that could plowing through his sternum and under neck forward) losing all the tension opens up a whole new dimension. We had our best transitions EVER because all the while we also were keeping him crisp to the request to move up into the next gait but to do so without bracing or tensing up.....so cool.

yes!! Very much agree!! That’s exactly how I felt as well.

[Chisamba]

Manni, that is so familiar, doing it the horses way, or the expedient way, because the rider wants to be ready for and can be successful showing that way, then you hit the self made ceiling because to go on, you have to have some things in place, the thing that can catch me by surprise is that the "expedient way" can actually look better than the "right" when you are first trying to fix it

[khall]

To me it is interesting to read these accounts of how to ride different horses and get correctness in their work. Those of you who ride the steam engines feel blessed! It is way easier to moderate that go than to try to develop that desire for movement. It was interesting to ready about exvet slowing Junior with her leg, I get that and actually have to be very aware of the leg in riding Rip. If I close my upper thigh it blocks his forward movement. I have to be very cognizant of keeping the thigh soft and draped while keeping the lower calf active when needed. Now Cedar is having me keep my lower leg on more in the canter. Not necessarily active but on.

I had to earlier on work with Rip to be more sensitive to the forward leg aid. Using the light leg for go and if he did not then chase him off and always go back to go. I also have to think of my internal energy being up where when I ride the fizzier horses I keep that energy calmer (that is my personal favorite type of horse to ride for I find I can really reduce the aids to a whisper)

I've also ridden the throw the head up young horse. Rip was a throw it up and bulge out the shoulder, never hard enough to hit me in the head but definitely not fun when he would try to muscle you around. I learned to lift the rein, following to keep the straight line of the elbow to the mouth. That helped him the most. I briefly considered using a running martingale but the one I bought was too small for him. It does get better when they learn to accept the aids. I don't think I could have confronted head on the issue, I had to just stick with it working at keeping the good feel in the bridle as much as I could. Not easy.

Even if my time was not consumed right now with my father, the weather here has just been horrid. It just rained for 3 days. It is raining buckets each week, not giving anything time to dry up. I'm ready for it to stop now. It will take a month or better for our lower hay field to dry up enough to get fertilizer in for the season.

Happy riding all!

[Dresseur]

I'm also really enjoying this round of thoughts and experiences. For everyone that is hurting (equine and human) hang in there, I'm thinking of you guys and sending good thoughts.

I'm personally in a very weird place. Over the past year, I've been really struggling with off and on again depression as my own injuries and set backs affect my physical condition and I just can't ride the way I want to. After the last flare up, things have been much better. My leg feels more solid, and I'm trying to get as much saddle time in during the week in short bursts so that I don't over face myself. But, we have a new boss at my work and his philosophy is no work from home, no leaving early (Even if you pulled an all-nighter) and you're not really busy unless you're pulling 12, 14+ hour days. That means that it's incredibly hard for me to get to the barn to keep up the short conditioning rides. And, for the first time in 15 years, I'm seriously considering leaving the company that I basically grew up in.

And, I'm also seriously considering leaving Miro at Andrea's and not bringing him home. This means a few things, one, I wouldn't be riding him as often, and 2, she'd be progressing the training and I wanted to do it all myself. BUT... he's happy there. He's sound there and very carefully managed. My home barn is not a fit for the turnout and feed management he needs. And, if he's not sound or can't stay sound...then there's really no point. But dammit, I wanted to train him up to GP by myself, and it will be a struggle to drive an hour each way to ride him 3x a week.

So, all of those things are culminating in a black cloud of apathy that I'm having a really hard time lifting. I did have a great ride on Wed on Gala and him where I felt half way like myself again. But, I'm tired of having to fight so hard for what I want and I'm tired of having to be careful and baby my leg. I should be happier right now with things feeling better and my horse being sound. I just need to snap out of it already...

[blob]

it will be a struggle to drive an hour each way to ride him 3x a week.

My horses are an hour away from me. It can be tough because i can't really do quick trips to the barn. So, when I go, i need to make sure I have a few hours of time. But one thing that has helped tremendously with the driving is audio books. I started listening to them a few years back and now, when I'm listening to a good book, I'm actually excited to get in the car. This, of course, doesn't help in shortening the time or the drive, but it does make it seem to pass by faster and it's a lot more enjoyable.

[piedmontfields]

Dresseur, I would be in a funk about this too (and job-hunting): "we have a new boss at my work and his philosophy is no work from home, no leaving early (Even if you pulled an all-nighter) and you're not really busy unless you're pulling 12, 14+ hour days."

I've been in a different funk as one of my pointers recovers from a torn CCL in his knee. Surgery went well, 8 weeks of rehab went well (but required rearranging my life and my husband's life and cancelling many trips), but earlier this week he suddenly came up very very lame. I thought the implant had failed or he had a terrible bone chip/deterioration. Xray today shows that the knee is okay---he just has a lot of swelling. So we are back to very careful, controlled management and will re-evaluate in a week. The emotional ups and downs are very hard (I had to rush to make an at-home euthanasia appt only to cancel it two days later).

Emi's job at this time is truly just to be fine and to be there for me. Thankfully, she has been doing a stellar job at both.

[Josette]

For those of you dealing with personal health issues, elderly parents, lame horses - you have my empathy because I am in the same situation. I've been rehabbing my pony with daily walks and restricted turnout. He never leaves his stall without all 4 legs wrapped. Then dealing with long term care issues with my elderly mother age 93. Plus this weird winter weather has not given us a break from the ticks. I was bitten back over New Years holiday developed the bulls eye. My recent lab test last week reported very high IgM titer. I'll see my doctor next week to discuss treatment options as I am allergic to Doxycycline.

I've been holding onto my sanity by cleaning stall, hand walking the wild thing and walking my dogs at local park. I'm just trying to hang in there.

[scruffy the cat]

Thanks @Manni01, very helpful.

[StraightForward]

Dresseur, that would have me looking for a new job as well. I mean, if work takes up all your energy and waking hours, and there's no time left for what you love, then really, what is the point. I hope you're able to institute a change for the better soon. Keeping Miro with Andrea sounds like a good plan to keep moving in the right direction at this time.

Josette - you have my sympathies with the hand walking. It is no fun any time of year, but getting out in the cold to fly an equine kit around is especially trying. Jingles for your mother as well.

Moutaineer, I'm sorry to hear Laddy is not on the mend as quickly as you'd hoped. I hope the vet can get to the bottom of the issue and patch him up in time for spring riding.

In minor victories and progress news, I long-lined Annabelle today. Prior to her injury, I'd only double-lunged her a couple times, so she is new to this, but getting the hang of it quickly. Today she had moments of working in a nice frame and I was reminded of how cute she is, and actually a pretty decent mover when all her parts are cooperating. She is wanting to unload her right hind quite a bit in the T/C transitions, but the strength and coordination is coming. Yesterday we had a tough time getting the right lead under saddle, but once she gets going she does well, and is starting to remember how to balance under me, so it's less careening around trying not to slam into walls. But the really big news is that I dared to let her loose in the arena this morning at the end of her work. She stayed very calm and went and rolled and ambled around until I came back for her. No wild 40m sprints.

Now I'm headed out to see what is wrong with Obie. BO texted this morning that his right leg is shaking and he is not wanting to stand on it. Sometimes he does these things and then is fine a few hours or a day later. We'll see. His left is the broken mediocarpal, but I wonder what sort of stress he puts on his right due to compensation. He is 16 this year and it's been almost 5 years since he broke his knee, so I won't be surprised if he continues to get more arthritic.

[demi]

I’m still keeping up with you all even tho I haven’t written lately. I felt I needed to write at least something because the longer I go without writing, the harder it seems to get started again.

I feel for all who are having physical problems either horse or rider. I will be hooking up my trailer in a few minutes and heading out for my lesson and I am trying to decide if I should take an Aleve or two...

Thinking about straightness from the other thread, my trainer has me working on that a lot. What I’ve noticed is that I use to subconsciously hate the spiral in leg/ yield out on a circle exersice but my trainer seems to always make me revisit it. Finally I just made the exercise the major part of our warmup (at a walk for 10” and then trot and canter). Now I like it! My problem was, I think, a straightness issue, and when I actually thought about what was going on (instead of wimping out and just not doing the exercise altogether!) I was able to improve it fairly quickly. Part of the quick fix was, I think, that I my skills have improved more than I realized.

Dresseur, I can imagine your situation and feel for you, but your predicament has some positive aspects. You are still relatively young so you probably have a lot of riding ahead. You are a clone of your trainer (an I mean that as a compliment) so having her continue MIro is the best possible thing short of doing it yourself. You have a great history with MIro and you won’t lose any of that relationship while Andrea trains him, especially since you will be getting on him often...I love your pics and hope to see many more.

Gotta go hook up now. I am thinking of having my trainer get on Rocky for a bit today. She hasn’t been on her for a long time (maybe a year or more) and I think it would be good for both Rocky and me. I will be fun to watch!

[blob]

Hope Obie is ok, Straightforward!

I had a really helpful lesson on RP sunday. I've talked on here already about how lately he will sometimes get kind of stuck and behind the leg. I've tried to combat that through a variety of things and thus far using trot poles as part of the warm-up had been the most but successful. But my trainer wanted to work on making RP self-carry a bit more and had us use collection to get in front and stay in front. We played around with getting him to take 3-4 very slow and deliberate steps off of my seat only, where my seat was very clearly regulating a slooowww tempo and my hands were forward, giving him space to find his own balance at that tempo. Once we had a few steps, I would take the contact back a bit--hands to neutral instead of forward--and let him open up into a bigger stride. We did this at exercise at all 3 gaits. It's not an exercise I would have thought of--slowing down the horse that is behind my leg. But it makes sense and it was a very, very rewarding session. RP stayed focused, soft, and honest in the connection. There was no getting stuck behind the leg or head tossing. There were moments where his head would pop up or he'd lose his tempo some as we both figured things out but those moments felt like moments that were productive. While the exercise was certainly easier to do in walk and trot, we had some moments at canter that felt really WOW, which are hopefully a preview of the canter we'll have soon.

Also had a lesson with MM, worked unlocking her some in the canter with HI and changing the angle/bend while maintaining the HI. She has been a really good girl lately. But I need to get my act together a bit with her. Every time I remember to check, my reins have become too long with her and I am not as sharp or clear with position or aids as I'd like to be.

Both lessons made me realize that my abs are not at all what they once were--I need some sitting trot boot camp.

[StraightForward]

Demi, good to hear from you!

Hope Obie is ok, Straightforward!

Thanks! He was pretty bad when I went out on Saturday, barely bearing any weight on his right, and the whole leg up through the shoulder was trembling. The upper part of the tendon sheath was warm and swollen. However, he was eating and seemed interested in his surroundings and generally unconcerned by his plight. I opened his gate and he ambled around the dry lot checking things out, so I deemed it not bad enough for a weekend emergency vet visit. Some bute and a standing wrap instead. Yesterday the leg wasn't shaking, and he was bearing weight on it better. Tonight he had improved some more and was walking away from me easily as soon as I produced the tube of bute from my pocket. Guessing he'll be fine again by the weekend.

Interesting exercise with RP; I just might try that with Annabelle, as she's doing a lot of getting stuck, poking the nose and so on. She tends to think a western pleasure shuffle is just dandy though, but it's worth a try.

A stall opened up in Annabelle's barn, so I moved Tesla in tonight. It used to be the foaling barn, and has giant stalls. The one remaining gelding in that barn must think he's acquired quite a lovely harem. It's going to make my life much easier with a nicer place to tack up and less schlepping of tack and gear all over the place. The other three owners in the bar aren't very active right now, so it's almost like having my own barn. Tesla was more alarmed by the change than I expected, but I'm sure she'll adjust soon enough.

[Sue B]

Rode Rudy Saturday and Sunday in celebration of their feet finally getting trimmed. Spring is definitely in the air, but Rudy, as always, was well-behaved with a lovely springy canter. Tio, otoh, was a complete idjit and I never even got to get on him! Out of the blue, he lost his ta on the lunge when a noisy truck and trailer went bombing by and he started galloping like 2" off the ground. He did remember his manners and didn't pull me around but I could not get him to slow down at all. Not only did he dig massive holes in my beautiful arena but when I did finally get him stopped, he was dragging his right hind. He was blowing so hard, I was worried about him tying up too. I walked him out in the hay field for about 20 minutes, (where I still had to remind him to pay attention to me) until he quit huffing and puffing and then had him trot both ways on the lunge to see if he was ok. Perfectly fine, no hitch, no nothing. Darn horse wasn't even sweaty! Sheesh. Next day he was a bit careful about pivoting off the right hind so I didn't ride, but I think he just tweaked his patellar ligament and that all is fine. Naturally, last 2 nights they both were galloping all over the pasture like the complete nut jobs they are. grrrr

[demi]

I like how my trainer pushes me. She moves me on faster (much faster) than I would on my own. We’ve had a couple of “breakthroughs” at home recently and after each one, at the following lessons, my trainer noticed. Each time, I was thinking, “this is going to be a great lesson”. Well, trainer mentions the improvement and then proceeds to ask for even more, pushing us right out of our newfound comfort zone into a slightly frustrated state.

This week I went to my lesson quite proud of our new and improved spiral in/leg yield out which I am doing for our 10 minute warmup. Trainers is riding another horse as I’m warming up and as my warmup is feeling really good (to me) I look up occasionally to see if she’s noticing and of course she is. She has eyes all over her head. She says, “that’s nice, let me know when you’re ready to start”. Then when we started the lesson, she had me keep going with the spiral from 20m to 10m and from the 10m ask for canter and LY back out in canter. She gave me the option of spiraling in at trot or walk. Picking up the canter at either gait from a 10m circle was new for us and Rocky decided to opt out of the exercise. She refused to canter. We worked on it to the point of both Rocky and I working up a good sweat and never really got it good. But here’s the thing: I went home an thought the lesson through, and I think I know how to make it work now. Of course, my trainer gave me the tools and hints, but I still had to mull it over before I could start to see what was/is going on. I would like to have it down by next Monday’s lesson....

[Aleuronx]

I'm so thankful for this thread as the ups and downs of everyone is keeping me sane and grounded. I hope that's true for others as well!

We're deep in the young horse slog. This weekend was a struggle of lots of different 'wrong' answers, so progress? I've still been riding with the draw rein just on the right side but haven't needed to engage it so that's positive. Just working through responses as black and white and patiently as I can. We end up sweaty and I have a slight regret for not clipping her but not about to do it now that we're into shedding time.

I did have a glimmer of hope on Sunday after a discussion full warm-up, ahem mare the rules are the rules today as well. Our 2nd set I was able to do serpentines and little leg yields at trot, canter both directions with no shenanigans and a practice centerline halt trot off combo. Patted her and called it a day on that. So it's in there and we'll get back there. I'm sure more quickly as soon as we can get back outside. At the farm we are generally back in the outdoor at least partially by the second week in April so I'm counting down to that!

I took a chance last evening and tacked her up to just do a walk hack in the evening barn commotion and having to deal with 3 teen riders. She was a remarkably happy clam and much less worried/stressed about the goings on so I'm pleased with that.

I'm waiting on some trailer parts to be delivered to fix up my 'new to me' rig and the new tires are on order as well. Hoping to get that all installed and the trailer a good once over by the mechanic place so we can start getting off property this year soon.

[exvet]

Still sending good vibes for all 2-legged and 4-legged members to quickly mend and enjoy nice riding weather. I had another lesson this morning that focused totally on demanding and establishing true connection to the point that we were getting lifted withers and the right use of the whole shoulders/neck/poll.

My coach is leaving for Florida [again]. I begged her for a lesson today before she leaves. She's going to be riding for a week with Mary Wanless; so, I'm looking forward to her return just to hear what she has learned BUT I explained to her that I couldn't wait because since our last lesson things seemed to be going well but then Junior just put on the "you can't make me breaks". I told her that I really was a bit at loss as to what to do so I ended up focusing on the gait he excels in, the canter, and new we could continue to make progress until I got her input. My greatest fear or what I desperately want to avoid is any tendency towards backward riding. So she had us start out at the walk and trot. Her observation was that I was slowing Junior down too much and he was basically 'shrinking' due to lack of momentum - that dam pendulum thing. Too much too little.......sometimes I hate goldilocks but to that end..... we worked at the trot until I could reliably and repeatedly get the right feeling of connection and tempo. She also had me ride in a way that had me focusing on my lats and infraspinatus tendon in order to keep my shoulders and hands down as well as my elbows soft but at my sides which seemed to encourage better lengthening of the neck and use of Junior's body in three equal pieces. Not really sure how to describe it; but, she also (as has Heather Blitz) had me working on lots of small serpentine lines/turns in order to keep Mr. "I can't possibly soften the base of my neck" from locking up and turning things into a wrestling match. It seemed to work and I had him really sitting and using his hind legs to power through for some of the trot when I was going back and forth between medium and collected and not just in the lift off for medium. It's definitely turning into a 3 steps forward 2 steps back deal which I am certain and dedicated in working through before we really start to work on the flying changes. He's getting so good at the canter (and counter canter) but until I get him to sign up for the long haul on coming over his back and not tensing and sucking back into his fire plug mode (steam engine) whenever I change the parameters, we're not going to go there. Of course I have almost a completely different horse at the sitting trot than the posting trot - I'm far more effective; but, until I can keep him moving appropriately over his back at the posting trot consistently, well, we'll be staying at second level .........................for.............as.................long............as.................it.................................takes!

[Manni01]

Still sending good vibes for all 2-legged and 4-legged members to quickly mend and enjoy nice riding weather. I had another lesson this morning that focused totally on demanding and establishing true connection to the point that we were getting lifted withers and the right use of the whole shoulders/neck/poll.

My coach is leaving for Florida [again]. I begged her for a lesson today before she leaves. She's going to be riding for a week with Mary Wanless; so, I'm looking forward to her return just to hear what she has learned BUT I explained to her that I couldn't wait because since our last lesson things seemed to be going well but then Junior just put on the "you can't make me breaks". I told her that I really was a bit at loss as to what to do so I ended up focusing on the gait he excels in, the canter, and new we could continue to make progress until I got her input. My greatest fear or what I desperately want to avoid is any tendency towards backward riding. So she had us start out at the walk and trot. Her observation was that I was slowing Junior down too much and he was basically 'shrinking' due to lack of momentum - that dam pendulum thing. Too much too little.......sometimes I hate goldilocks but to that end..... we worked at the trot until I could reliably and repeatedly get the right feeling of connection and tempo. She also had me ride in a way that had me focusing on my lats and infraspinatus tendon in order to keep my shoulders and hands down as well as my elbows soft but at my sides which seemed to encourage better lengthening of the neck and use of Junior's body in three equal pieces. Not really sure how to describe it; but, she also (as has Heather Blitz) had me working on lots of small serpentine lines/turns in order to keep Mr. "I can't possibly soften the base of my neck" from locking up and turning things into a wrestling match. It seemed to work and I had him really sitting and using his hind legs to power through for some of the trot when I was going back and forth between medium and collected and not just in the lift off for medium. It's definitely turning into a 3 steps forward 2 steps back deal which I am certain and dedicated in working through before we really start to work on the flying changes. He's getting so good at the canter (and counter canter) but until I get him to sign up for the long haul on coming over his back and not tensing and sucking back into his fire plug mode (steam engine) whenever I change the parameters, we're not going to go there. Of course I have almost a completely different horse at the sitting trot than the posting trot - I'm far more effective; but, until I can keep him moving appropriately over his back at the posting trot consistently, well, we'll be staying at second level .........................for.............as.................long............as.................it.................................takes!

Love your post!! I could have written the same things... I ran into the same problems in between lessons. Each lesson helped me to deal better with my problems.. and the proper forward momentum is so important... I am still insecure without my trainer to find the right tempo... and my horse is kind of sensitive so if I get to demanding with my aids, she blocks me completely... It takes so much thinking and feeling to get her to move nicely without getting mad at me...

[blob]

Enjoying reading everyone's posts and updates.

I had jury duty and was selected for a trial. It's still going on and we've been getting out late each night. So, sadly I haven't been able to ride all week. Really looking forward to riding this weekend.